Biblical discipline through the ages

00:09Pastor Ken:Parenting Week Three: Biblical Discipline Through the Ages. That's the topic we're talking about tonight. Parenting that strong-willed child without breaking their spirits today on Real Talk with PK. Well, welcome back to Real Talk with PK. All September, we've been talking about parenting, answering real questions coming from our parents in our own church, and today we're getting into one that I think is very difficult, friends. And the word is discipline. More specifically, how do you biblically discipline children at different ages, and what do you do with that strong-willed child? That's a difficult subject, but we're gonna try to accomplish and answer that for you tonight. I want to welcome my lifelong companion into this conversation, Rachel, how are you tonight?

01:22Rachel:I am great. So good to be here again, talking about this subject that I'm very passionate about. After raising five of our own kids, this is something that I really love to be able to weigh in on.

01:33Pastor Ken:Yeah, it's it's a tough one, isn't it?

01:35Rachel:Yeah, it really is. We're

01:36Pastor Ken:only doing this tonight. There's just one question. We I kind of broke it up into different parts, but this is going to take the whole show because I think it's that important. Yeah,

01:47Rachel:just one that we get a lot of questions about for sure.

01:49Pastor Ken:For sure.

01:50Rachel:Yeah.

01:50Pastor Ken:So you know, I believe that parents a parent's job is not to crush the will of a child. I don't believe that our job, as Proverbs 22:6 says is to train up a child in the way that they should go. Train up a child. So biblical discipline is ultimately about training. It's not revenge. It's not embarrassment. It's not making children afraid of us. Right. It's not taking our frustration out on them. Although sometimes that does happen, and we don't mean to do that. And I think if that does happen, we should apologize as parents. We should we should lead in that avenue of saying we're sorry for something that we should should not have done, right? But you know, our goal as parents is to train them, right? And training, I think changes a child as as he or she grows. So, question number one for us tonight is: What does biblical discipline actually mean? What does biblical discipline actually mean?

02:58Rachel:Okay, that's a great question. So, discipline and punishment aren't exactly the same thing. Punishment focuses primarily on paying for something that you've done, and discipline instead asks, "What do I need to teach you through what you've

03:14Pastor Ken:done? Right,

03:15Rachel:and that's where parenting is so important: guiding, leading, directing. It focuses on discipline in that loving way, not punishment, not with a heavy hand. So, what do I need to teach you through what you've done? Hebrews 12:11 says, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace. So, the goal here that I want everyone to notice is it says a harvest.

03:44Pastor Ken:Right.

03:44Rachel:Biblical discipline has the future in mind. It's not just about the now. It's about the future. It's cultivating another word, a harvest word. It's cultivating in that child truths that will spring forth in them and bring about a harvest of good things in their life that will be productive in society that will come back to bless you as parents and those around them. And so, with that in mind, that that's really at the root. If no pun intended, to use another harvest term, but that's really at the root of what we should be doing as parents is cultivating good behavior through good teaching, good soil in our children.

04:29Pastor Ken:I kind of like to say it this way: What kind of adult, right, am I trying to help this child become? Because ultimately, that's the goal of parents. Yeah, is that we are raising our children to be adults, right? Right, to be an asset to society, not a liability. We have lots of liabilities today in our society. We don't want that in our children, right? So I think when we do that, if we have that mindset, it's it's a. Completely different mindset that we're futuristic with our kids. We're trying to, you know, lead them and train them and discipline them so that they'll be good adults in the future, right? Yeah. And and Ephesians chapter six verse four says this: Fathers, do not exasperate your children, right? Instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. So there it is again that we are training, we are instructing, we are disciplining. I think they're one in the same. Discipline can be training, in my opinion. Discipline can be instruction. It doesn't necessarily discipline does not necessarily have to be spanking all the time.

05:45Rachel:Yeah, we always think of we always go to that first thing.

05:47Pastor Ken:Right,

05:48Rachel:but it's you're gonna get it. Well, it's basically I like to think of it as holding your kids accountable for their behavior because we all have to be held accountable for our behavior.

05:56Pastor Ken:Right,

05:56Rachel:and we all need discipline. I mean, you and I like to watch football together, and one of the things that we've been saying a lot in watching football is that we we'll see a play that is just a mess.

06:06Pastor Ken:Yeah,

06:07Rachel:we'll see a you know a foul or a penalty rather, and we look at each other and we literally say a lack of discipline right there. Yep, that player needed discipline. That is an undisciplined behavior that he just exhibited. He

06:22Pastor Ken:just popped off,

06:23Rachel:right? And therefore, the coach is probably going to come down on that player.

06:27Pastor Ken:Well, you'd hope so. You know,

06:27Rachel:you would think. I mean, I'm sure the coaches don't like it very much when these players get these silly. No, they usually get a

06:33Pastor Ken:chewing when they come back on the sideline. If they get a 15 yard penalty, you know, unsportsmanlike conduct. Oh yeah, and that hurts

06:39Rachel:the whole team. Yeah, but that all boils back to being undisciplined, right? You know, and so the coach's job is to bring discipline to that player, right? So that they play smarter and they play wiser and better, right? And so, and the same thing with us, we're entrusted. I mean, we're given a we're given a very beautiful responsibility to raise these precious kids that God has entrusted

07:04Pastor Ken:us to

07:04Rachel:steward, and if we think of it as stewarding, it will change the way we guide them.

07:09Pastor Ken:It's a gift from God.

07:10Rachel:It is children, and the Bible says that children are from the Lord. And our job as parents is to steward the gift that God gave us, that He trusted us with.

07:21Pastor Ken:Right,

07:21Rachel:and so that's really at the root of disciplining is you're holding your children accountable as they grow, and that accountability is going to look different.

07:30Pastor Ken:It

07:31Rachel:is at different ages.

07:32Pastor Ken:Yeah,

07:32Rachel:it's going to look different for different offenses, if you will, because you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna come down on them in the same way for different things, you know, everything has to be appropriate, right? Correct. And then also, your kids are all different. Some kids need different different ways of handling. You can't. One size does not fit all.

07:55Pastor Ken:Correct.

07:55Rachel:We had five kids, and to be honest, we had to parent them quite differently.

08:00Pastor Ken:Yeah.

08:00Rachel:You know, I would say maybe we parented Bethany and Brooke similarly, and we parented Nathan and Kendra more similarly, and Ian got away with murder.

08:09Pastor Ken:Yeah,

08:09Rachel:no, he didn't. I'm kidding. He's the baby, but he did well.

08:14Pastor Ken:He he was yeah he he wasn't. We were old. Our redheads were very stubborn and and hard headed. It is true. Yeah, redheads are totally different. Our blondes, you could just look at them and they start crying.

08:26Rachel:Right, but they still the redheads. They still got in trouble. They did. They they could just use tears. We didn't have to

08:30Pastor Ken:spank them as much as we did the redheads.

08:32Rachel:Right, and and and to be fair, we probably spanked the redheads too much. If I had to go back, I would probably do things a little differently. But I, you know, we well, you

08:42Pastor Ken:live, you grow. We

08:43Rachel:grow and we learn, right? We were

08:44Pastor Ken:in our 20, mid 20s when we had Kendra,

08:47Rachel:right? We, you learn as you go. So if I had to do it again, I'm sure I would do things a lot differently now. Yeah,

08:52Pastor Ken:for sure. But

08:53Rachel:you parent them all. You do discipline them differently based on them. But discipline is super important. Yeah. Well,

09:01Pastor Ken:biblical discipline isn't about making your child pay.

09:04Rachel:Right.

09:05Pastor Ken:That's not what it's about. It's about helping our children grow.

09:08Rachel:Yeah.

09:08Pastor Ken:Right. And I think I think some parents I've seen it in stores where they do make them pay. You know, they pinch them real hard, or you know, they I hear parents you know, curse at them, say we till we get home, or just

09:24Rachel:really, just really unloving, unloving and hateful, and

09:28Pastor Ken:that's making your child pay, right? And and that's ignorance, I think, to do things like that. And you know, this is where you know the Lord helps us to cool down. Everyone loses their temper, but you have to cool down and not discipline in anger. Which you know, we we want to talk about should discipline change as children get older? And of of course, yes. The the one word is absolutely. I mean, you don't you don't discipline a three year old like. You're going to discipline an eight-year-old or a 10-year-old, right? So I think one of the mistakes parents can make is disciplining a 15-year-old the same way that they would discipline a five-year-old,

10:11Rachel:right?

10:12Pastor Ken:And you know they they they flatline everything. Every everybody falls on this category, and that's not that's not good. That's not fair. You know, methods change with ages. So I I wanted to talk about yeah break that down for parents to help them understand what does that mean and what does it look like. So we we want to explain this in four stages with you of how it changes. So stage one, we I broke it down to early childhood and boundaries, right? And explain that for the audience. You know, we kind

10:52Rachel:of put in our notes ages two through five, but I actually think this is depending upon your child. I kind of think kids start to be able to understand at about 18 months old, you know when they're getting into the same thing over and over again at 18 months old, and you start telling them no, they should start understanding that you don't want them doing that. Right, and what that looks like at that age is just you redirecting them, redirecting them. Nope, we're not going to get into the cabinet and pull all the dishes out and break everything all over the kitchen floor. Nope, we're not doing that. Nope, we're not doing that. And you're redirecting and redirecting, and I always say you're distracting them instead of that. You move them to where you want them to be. You put blocks in front of them, or Legos in front of them, or baby dolls in front, whatever you want them to play with instead. You're saying, ah, ah, we're not doing that. We're doing this, right? And you're redirecting. You're training them. You're taking your rod, which is your hand, and you're directing them like a shepherd to something different that is okay for them to do instead. Right, and you're lovingly doing it because they are learning. Right, they're they're catching on that this is what we do. And

11:55Pastor Ken:and and why we're doing that, we say you know if they're hitting like we don't hit,

11:59Rachel:we don't hit. That's not okay.

12:01Pastor Ken:We don't do that. And you

12:03Rachel:tell sister sorry. You tell brother sorry. We don't hit brother. Sorry,

12:06Pastor Ken:does that now? Yeah, sorry, sorry,

12:09Rachel:sorry. Yeah. So you know you're teaching them, and you're you sound like a broken record. And now I feel bad for young parents. It's hard. Parenting is work, and you cannot do it from a couch with a remote control in your hand, right? No, and you absolutely can't do it while you're scrolling on Facebook. You have to get up and you have to be physically involved in directing your young children and and teaching them the way that they should go. Words don't matter. You got to do it. You got to physically help them. Well,

12:42Pastor Ken:you have to be present. The right thing, and I think the what I hear you saying is consistency. Yeah, we have to be consistent in the early, early years, and this this is where it's hard for parents. And

12:54Rachel:I think it's the most important, honestly. I think if you really hone in on the 18 months to five, six years old, you are laying awesome foundation. It is awesome groundwork to build upon.

13:05Pastor Ken:Well, and you're teaching them consequences should be immediate. You know, you're you're turning that two year old away from the problem area, right? And it, you know, you're going to do it over and over and over, and age appropriation and connection behavior is going to start catching on, right? You know, like Sully, I could tell him no, and he'll stop. He'll stop for me, yeah. But you know, and I think authoritative voices are a little bit better too, without

13:35Rachel:yelling,

13:36Pastor Ken:without yelling, yeah, but just some authority behind it, and that's why dad's touch is so important.

13:41Rachel:Yeah, you're just like, hey, the father needs

13:43Pastor Ken:to be involved in this. True, right? Yeah. So they keep on going there or taking something, then that toy goes away, right? We take that away from them. They're hurting the child, you know. Keep on hitting. You take the, you know, the toy away. There's consequences, right? And they won't like that, but

14:00Rachel:they'll get over it.

14:01Pastor Ken:They'll get over it. Yeah, yeah. You can't let little Johnny get hit with a toy hammer in the head all the time because you don't want to take the toy away from him. Exactly.

14:09Rachel:And you have to follow through.

14:10Pastor Ken:Right.

14:10Rachel:You know, if you say if you don't stop doing that, I'm taking that from you, then you have to take that from them. Yeah. They don't stop doing that. You can't warn

14:17Pastor Ken:them 15 times.

14:19Rachel:I see that a lot with yeah.

14:20Pastor Ken:We I do too. Yeah. I

14:21Rachel:see it. Words are cheap with parents. Very cheap.

14:23Pastor Ken:Yeah. One other

14:24Rachel:thing that I really. This is probably one of my drums I beat the most whenever I teach anything about parenting is that yelling is not a form of discipline.

14:31Pastor Ken:No,

14:31Rachel:it is absolutely 100% never effective. Yelling should be reserved for your child is chasing a ball towards the street and a car is coming, and then you're yelling with all your might. Stop,

14:46Pastor Ken:right?

14:47Rachel:And that your words they will matter,

14:49Pastor Ken:right?

14:50Rachel:If you don't yell on the daily, then when you yell to potentially save your child's life, they're gonna listen because they're not used to mom yelling or dad yelling,

14:59Pastor Ken:exactly.

15:00Rachel:They're gonna take notice, or whatever the case may be, of danger. You know, they're they're running with a knife that they got off the counter in the kitchen, and you yell stop. You know, they're gonna stop because they're not used to you just being so obnoxious and yelling, right? And so yelling is not a form of discipline. I've even thought sometimes about getting T-shirts that say that and wearing them around because I just feel bad for kids that are being yelled at all the time. I'm like, come on, yelling is yelling doesn't work.

15:29Pastor Ken:Right, it

15:30Rachel:harms your child. It really does. And so if if that's you and you find yourself yelling, I get it. It's hard. Parenting is so tough. I've been there. We've been there. I used to fall into bed at night almost in tears, and I would think, "Oh my gosh, I'm running a daycare here, and nobody's picked up their children, and I didn't get paid. I mean, it's hard. That's how you feel as a mom sometimes, but it doesn't give you the right to do bad things.

15:58Pastor Ken:Correct.

15:58Rachel:You have to keep your be your behind. I think your

16:01Pastor Ken:spiritual life really ties into that because you got to stay rooted and grounded in God's Word, and and you got to stay in prayer for what we're talking about to be present in our lives. If if we separate ourselves from God and we're not praying and we're not staying connected to the Lord in John 15. We're gonna we're gonna reap some awful fruit.

16:28Rachel:Yeah,

16:28Pastor Ken:because we're gonna be disciplining out of the flesh and anger instead of disciplining out of love and heart for our kids to be. And your kids

16:37Rachel:totally know the difference. They can totally get it.

16:40Pastor Ken:I think children quickly learn whether our words mean something or not.

16:43Rachel:Yeah,

16:43Pastor Ken:they do, and so well.

16:45Rachel:And I think too, if you're parenting, we weren't

16:47Pastor Ken:yellers. We didn't yell.

16:48Rachel:But I always felt passionate about that. Yeah, that yelling is not a form of discipline, and so I really worked on that. That I reserved yelling for major moments that I knew that they could get hurt.

16:59Pastor Ken:Yeah,

16:59Rachel:but you do. You have to make sure that your own behavior is in check, and it's not easy. I don't want to make it sound like I don't want to oversimplify it because I know. Well, I don't think you

17:08Pastor Ken:are. I think it's very hard. But

17:09Rachel:it it is hard. But I know that we can. I

17:12Pastor Ken:would show my bottom teeth because it was something that my grandmother did do, and and if I showed my bottom teeth, yeah, he'd

17:18Rachel:get mad. He go,

17:19Pastor Ken:I go like this. Can the camera see that? I go like this. Get a picture of that, Todd. And and they knew.

17:28Rachel:Yeah,

17:28Pastor Ken:my grandmother did it to me all the time, and I knew. Oh,

17:31Rachel:well, and I'm pretty sure Bethany does it too. Yeah,

17:33Pastor Ken:I think Bethany does it now. Bethany does that. She gets a little frustrated with her kids. Yeah, yeah. I've seen it a couple times. You know, but you're not yelling. You

17:40Rachel:have those quick moments of your first. My kids knew

17:42Pastor Ken:when I they saw the teeth. They're like, "Oh, oh, we're in trouble. We are in

17:46Rachel:trouble. Dad is really getting upset. Yeah.

17:48Pastor Ken:So stage two would be elementary years responsibility. You know, we're we're starting to teach them, and and I put like ages six to 10.

17:58Rachel:Yeah.

17:59Pastor Ken:Now in our discipline, instead of just moving the child, you know, away from problems, we're beginning to explain ourselves why are we doing this. They're old enough to

18:10Rachel:understand it. No, they are six through 10. They

18:12Pastor Ken:are, and they should. They should know. Aren't taking notice of these things? Don't do that. And we're teaching them. Here's why we don't do that. Right. Instead of just saying don't do that, you know, right? Where their their logical consequences become powerful, and so they're beginning to think, yeah. And you can tell them that it's because you don't stick your a tool into the socket into the house, you know, into the light socket because you could get electrocuted. What that means is

18:41Rachel:this, and then they are like, "Oh my, I'm not doing that anymore.

18:44Pastor Ken:Right? Because now they have a little

18:45Rachel:fear in them, which is not always a bad thing.

18:47Pastor Ken:So I I think that if we just take time to explain things,

18:52Rachel:time to explain things,

18:53Pastor Ken:it would be better.

18:54Rachel:That is so key. Taking time to work with them to again direct them, train them, gear them. That's what a shepherd. We're shepherding them. We

19:08Pastor Ken:are shepherding. We're

19:09Rachel:stewarding and shepherding them. And you have to take the time. You you gave a couple of of examples. If you intentionally damage something, well, then you're going to have to help replace

19:21Pastor Ken:it, yeah.

19:21Rachel:And that might mean you have to rake leaves every day after school to make the money to replace what you broke intentionally. Now, obviously, accidents happen, yeah. And as a parent, you have to make that call and maybe explain to your child this is why we still have to be a little careful. We don't, you know, we don't run around the house with an umbrella and knock things over. Right. You know, there's reasons that we say we don't want you running in the house and running in the house. Don't

19:43Pastor Ken:throw balls,

19:44Rachel:yeah, because you

19:45Pastor Ken:know hard things, golf balls, things like that. Because you could break a mirror, television. So now you broke a mirror. What do we

19:50Rachel:do now? Do we just say, "Oh well, you broke the mirror" No, now we have a broken mirror that needs to be replaced. Right. And so I think holding kids accountable at every age is really key. I mean. When you get pulled over, of course you don't get pulled over by the cops. When I get pulled over by the cops, let's restate that because that would be me that got pulled over.

20:08Pastor Ken:Yes, friends, it's important. I'm not

20:09Rachel:crying immediately like someone just died so that the police officer has mercy on me and then lets you go. I know it only it only happens to women, right?

20:16Pastor Ken:Oh my gosh!

20:18Rachel:I say, you know what? Thank you, officer, for doing your job.

20:20Pastor Ken:Yeah,

20:20Rachel:I mean, it. I take my bricks. You know, if you are going to speed, you're going to get a ticket, and you're. But what you're saying is,

20:28Pastor Ken:don't rescue your children from every consequence. That's right. That they have. Yeah,

20:33Rachel:they have to. They have to learn. They learn that acts that actions have consequences when they're 10, right? Not when they're 20 or 16 and start driving. They should already know from growing up that that actions have consequences. Yeah, if

20:47Pastor Ken:they break something, then their allowance that they get weekly is going to start, you know, pay for some of that.

20:53Rachel:Yeah, I remember one of our kids. We had a pontoon boat when we were pastoring in Coldwater. We lived near Coldwater Lake, and so we would take our pontoon out on the lake on our days off, and we-it was one of our favorite things that we love to do. And I remember when we were ready to come in, we would tell the kids, "Okay, we're ready to come in. Everybody, get on the boat. We want to go back, or there's a storm coming in, or whatever. We got to get home. We need to eat dinner, whatever. And our kids just did not want to come in. They just wanted to keep swimming, keep swimming, keep swimming. So we had a talk with them one day, and we said, "Listen, when it's time to go, you guys better get up on that boat, or the next time we go out, you don't get to swim. You have to stay on the boat. You don't get to go in the water. And I remember it took one time for one of our kids to not come on the boat. I mean, we weren't like drill sergeants. We were like, "Hey guys, in about five minutes, we're going to be leaving, so you guys need to start coming on the boat and get dried off and whatever. And so then, when we were actually ready, you pulled the anchor up and you're like, "Okay, guys, I pulled the anchor up. Let's go. And they started coming, and one of them was still kind of silly swimming around, and we were like, "You know what? You are going to sit on the boat next week, and you don't get to swim. And do you know that one time of us not letting you remember who

22:05Pastor Ken:it was?

22:05Rachel:I do, but I'm not going to say

22:07Pastor Ken:okay

22:07Rachel:because it's his birthday today, and I wouldn't want to shame him on his birthday. Shout out to our son Nathan. It's one time for our seven or eight year old son to not be able to swim on our boating day, none of our kids ever did that again.

22:23Pastor Ken:Yeah,

22:24Rachel:when you were pulling the anchor up and you said, "Come on, guys, we're going back, they bolted on the on the boat. Yeah, because nobody wants to miss out on fun.

22:33Pastor Ken:Yeah,

22:33Rachel:you know they they're realizing that actions have consequences, and if I don't listen, I mean, why do we want to stand over the edge of the boat and have to keep saying over and over again, "Come on, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on" I mean, that's just not right. Parents should not have to do that because that means your words mean nothing.

22:52Pastor Ken:Well, I see that in the store. Yeah, you know, we we're going now. I don't want to go, and then they're pulling the kid through the store. Yeah, it's so embarrassing. It's really bad.

23:03Rachel:It is,

23:03Pastor Ken:and it's because they haven't been consistent when they were little, like stage one and stage two. They weren't consistent. All of a sudden, they think you know, at eight, nine, ten, eleven, they're going to start obeying. Right. You know, it's not going to happen. But

23:18Rachel:you know what's also important, like about that example about the boat, is if if a week would have went by and then the next Friday came and we all got out of the boat and that child were to say oh come on come on come on come on can I swim can I can I can I and we were to be like okay fine just don't do that again and guess what they do it again that just made us a liar

23:35Pastor Ken:right exactly

23:36Rachel:because we were like no you can't swim today

23:39Pastor Ken:right

23:39Rachel:because I have to be a person of my word.

23:42Pastor Ken:Well, what you just said is your words mean nothing.

23:44Rachel:It right.

23:45Pastor Ken:There's no consequence. Like you know what? Because that goes back to the last point: consequences.

23:49Rachel:Yeah.

23:49Pastor Ken:There are there has to be. And we

23:51Rachel:felt bad. I remember saying like, I feel really bad that you're gonna miss out today. But you know what? You won't ever do that again.

23:58Pastor Ken:Right.

23:58Rachel:And and next time you'll have a lot. You'll have fun on the boat, and it'll all be fine,

24:02Pastor Ken:right?

24:02Rachel:But you know what? Today, you need to take a book or something to do because you're not swimming.

24:06Pastor Ken:Yep.

24:07Rachel:And it ended up being fine. He wasn't like sitting there sulking. You know, I think

24:10Pastor Ken:I'm sure he sulked. I think

24:12Rachel:he probably did. He was a sulk. I don't remember like all of it in in great detail. But I do remember like times like that where you know you have to hold your kids accountable, and as a parent, sometimes you start thinking, "Man, I really want to give in on this because I feel bad for them. But then you are like, "No, I cannot give in.

24:30Pastor Ken:Listen, that that's where parent and friendship, and a lot of parents want to be with their friends. You are their parent. There is no friendship. That's

24:39Rachel:a really good point.

24:40Pastor Ken:There is no friendship. That is

24:41Rachel:such a good point.

24:42Pastor Ken:You have to be a parent. That is what friendship

24:44Rachel:would look like with your kid. Sure.

24:46Rachel:Okay, Nathan, because I I know it's so nice out today, and I want you to be able to swim with your sisters. It's okay. Just promise me that next time Dad says it's time that you're gonna listen.

24:59Pastor Ken:Yeah.

24:59Rachel:Well, not. Well, guess what? You've just taken all your strength away for the future. Word is authority.

25:05Pastor Ken:All your authority was just flushed down. Gave it away. Just gave in the lake. Bottom of the lake is

25:10Rachel:in the bottom of Coldwater Lake. Yeah.

25:12Pastor Ken:So stage three. Yeah. So good is preteen and early teen ownership. Now I broke this up between 11 and 14. It could be a little bit older too. They can fluctuate, but now the conversation has deepened here, right? Because they're older now. So instead of always saying, "Here's what you did wrong, this is you start asking, "Tell me what happened, right? Or what what choice did you make, or who did that affect? You know, start asking the questions. Right? How could you have done it differently? I love that question. Or how are you going to make this right? Because when you start asking them questions like that, it begins to develop a moral compass in them. Hopefully, when you because now they're thinking right, and eventually, mom and dad isn't. They're not going to be there to save them. To you know, so the goal is that we're moving from I didn't, I don't do this because mom and dad will punish me. I don't want to do this because mom and dad will punish me. Hopefully, the goal will be I don't want to do this because I know it's wrong.

26:22Rachel:Right.

26:23Pastor Ken:That that's a huge. I know it's

26:25Rachel:wrong, and then they start to link it to because right now they're they're recognizing you as their authority in their life. Right. But when they become adults, you hope that that moral authority right is in Christ. Right. I don't want to do this behavior because I don't want to hurt the heart of. Well, now

26:40Pastor Ken:that's isn't that middle school age, middle middle school years, right? 11 through kind of 14.

26:45Rachel:Yeah.

26:46Pastor Ken:So we're not there. They're at school.

26:48Rachel:Right.

26:49Pastor Ken:Right. So yeah, I mean, yeah.

26:51Rachel:And you also, I like at the end you put, I don't do this because mom and dad will punish me. You don't want that. Right. You want them to say, I I'm not going to do this because I know it's wrong.

27:00Pastor Ken:Right. You know,

27:01Rachel:I don't want to to talk like that to my sisters because I love my sister, or to a

27:07Pastor Ken:teacher, or to the principal. Exactly, we got phone calls all the time. Our kids, some of our kids, had to learn the hard way.

27:13Rachel:Yeah,

27:13Pastor Ken:you know, and it wasn't our girls, so that tell you right there. But you know, the boys would get lippy, and Mr. Johnson would call us. Well, they call you because yeah, they always call and they go,

27:27Rachel:Hi, Mrs. Warren. It's Gavin. Everything's fine. Do you have a minute?

27:30Pastor Ken:Yeah, they always say

27:31Rachel:everything's fine. Do you really?

27:32Pastor Ken:What do you do now?

27:33Rachel:So at least you know, like they're not calling you because something happened to your kid, right? They're like, "Hey, it's Gavin.

27:38Pastor Ken:Yeah,

27:38Rachel:everything's fine. Do you have a minute? I got all the time you need, Gavin. What's going on? And

27:42Pastor Ken:then that that opened up a training session for us to pour into our kids to say, "Listen, you're not going to agree with everything a teacher says,

27:51Rachel:right?

27:51Pastor Ken:You're you're not, but you have to show respect. Yeah, you cannot just, you know, blow them off because they're asking to do something that might be silly.

28:00Rachel:Can't throw a chocolate milk in the lunchroom and get away with it,

28:02Pastor Ken:right? You you got to do something. You got to be respectful, and hopefully that stops, and it did. But you know, this is where you're teaching them to be young adults,

28:14Rachel:right?

28:14Pastor Ken:That there are consequences to their actions. I mean, I'm not

28:17Rachel:going to tell. I'm not going to lie if I didn't say that. I didn't laugh a couple times first.

28:21Pastor Ken:No, well, I don't. Sometimes

28:22Rachel:I'm like, "What were you thinking?

28:24Pastor Ken:Yeah, you would call me at church. That you know, Mr. Gavin called what? Mr. Johnson called

28:29Rachel:what?

28:30Pastor Ken:You know, so

28:30Rachel:yeah, but they there was consequences. There was not only did they get not only did they get in some trouble with school with the principal. They got then they had some consequences at home. Like you have to write a letter of apology. You're gonna have to this, and you know. Oh

28:43Pastor Ken:yeah, Nathan did write a letter.

28:45Rachel:Yeah,

28:45Pastor Ken:he hated that.

28:46Rachel:He did. He told me when he was when he became an adult that was his best punishment ever.

28:50Pastor Ken:Yeah,

28:51Rachel:he goes, Mom, that was probably the best thing that you could do for me because I was so high on my horse then.

28:55Pastor Ken:Yep,

28:55Rachel:and that was that forced me to humble myself, and I was so mad that I had to do that.

29:02Pastor Ken:Yep.

29:03Rachel:But he said that was brilliant, and I'm like, "Don't give me any credit. Well, that kind of-I don't know how I thought of it. No, it was

29:10Pastor Ken:just the Lord. But it really was leads us to stage four because the teen years are very difficult. A lot of parents have issues here. This is a this is a big one, right? It's hard, and I captioned it. Teen years, we need wisdom. You're dealing 15 year olds, 15 to 18 year old, right in there in that area, and now we're moving more from parenting to coaching. We want to coach our kids, right? Because now they're making choices, which this is what I did with Ian.

29:44Rachel:Yeah,

29:44Pastor Ken:is I coached him and I really tried to show him the consequences, and I didn't blow up and I didn't get mad like I did with Nathan. You know, totally changed my parenting skills from one son to the other because I. The iron hand didn't work as well as the coaching hand. It worked so much better, and and I want parents to know that that you know you can you can change. You know, I I changed and and I learned. Well, I think too from my mistakes. Not

30:17Rachel:to take your thunder too much, but I think a lot of times we parent how our parents parented us.

30:22Pastor Ken:Well, that's true, and

30:23Rachel:so we kind of think that that's how that's what my parents did. So that's the way I'm doing it. Well, yeah, but you do learn as you go, and it's okay to to course correct. And you were a great example of that.

30:33Pastor Ken:Course, yes. And I I didn't want Ian to, you know, experience the wrath that Nathan did, and so you know, you have to change. You you have to find ways. And and so coaching was it for me. There were there there were still household rules. I didn't change those. There were still boundaries. I never changed those from what I did with Nathan. There's still consequences. I didn't change that either. But how I communicated, how you communicated and how I reacted was totally different. I gave Ian the freedom of responsibility, son. If you do that, this is what's going to happen. I don't want you to do that, but in essence, I'm going to let you hang yourself. I told him that

31:17Rachel:within reason. I do remember we took the car away from him one time for probably a month.

31:22Pastor Ken:Yeah, I said you're not. You do this.

31:24Rachel:You're won't. You're not going to have my

31:26Pastor Ken:car.

31:26Rachel:And he didn't. He went about a month one time without a car. Right. And we're like, nope. Right. Give me the keys. You're done.

31:32Pastor Ken:One

31:32Rachel:month of no car.

31:34Pastor Ken:Right.

31:34Rachel:And

31:35Pastor Ken:and he he agreed because he knew he

31:37Rachel:did because I

31:38Pastor Ken:talked to him a week prior to that about whatever it was, so you know they kids at that age they want their privacy. Don't read my cell phone, you know. Blah blah blah. You know, I actually pay your

31:50Rachel:bill.

31:51Pastor Ken:Yeah, exactly. I can take your phone. It's called about breaking trust, right? You break my trust, we're gonna have problems. Yeah, and so there was issues with Ian, even though I didn't come down hard on him, there were consequences that were hard on him.

32:06Rachel:Right, they were very hard. They

32:08Pastor Ken:were very hard. Notice the difference. I'm I'm more came hard on Nathan, and the consequences were not as much. I just yelled a lot, you know, and that that wasn't

32:22Rachel:you like really exhibited your anger.

32:24Pastor Ken:Yes, and that wasn't good.

32:26Rachel:Where with him, you kind of kept your cool, and you're like, you know, Ian, this really stinks.

32:30Pastor Ken:Yeah, this really sucks for you, but you know what? It is what it is. Do this. This is

32:35Rachel:really bummer. It really unfortunate that you've chosen this.

32:39Pastor Ken:Right. It

32:40Rachel:really hurts our heart to see you have to deal with this, right?

32:43Pastor Ken:Because I think when you can teach your kids responsibility, it expands their freedom. Yeah, irresponsibility limits their freedom, and Ian got limited freedom multiple times because he took advantage. He thought he would never get caught, or this or that. You know, all just a side

33:01Rachel:note: like parents ask me, like my clients will ask me sometimes, like, "Oh man, I don't know how you parented five kids. Like, how'd you get through the teen years? And I said, "Oh, I don't know. Honestly, it was just the Lord, really. I I can't take much credit for it, but I will say, if I had to do it over again, there are a couple things I would do differently.

33:16Pastor Ken:Yeah.

33:16Rachel:And my one main thing I always say is I would never allow sleepovers.

33:21Pastor Ken:Right.

33:21Rachel:Ever.

33:22Pastor Ken:Yeah, I wouldn't either. Yeah,

33:23Rachel:ever. I just would never allow them. I would start telling my kid.

33:26Pastor Ken:I've had parents ask me that recently. I'd be like,

33:29Rachel:"Hey, six-year-old, don't ever ask me to go on to have a sleepover because that's going to be a forbidden fruit in our house. We are never doing sleepovers.

33:36Pastor Ken:Yeah, they don't work. Nope. But you know, it's it's about it's but it's a responsibility. They have to be yeah, and it's not about controlling your kids. Yeah, parents, I think a lot. I feel like most of the problems will happen to sleepovers. They want to control their kids. Yeah, it's not about that. It's about preparing them for adulthood. Yeah, and I I think that's what we got to get into parents' spirit tonight.

34:00Rachel:Is that

34:01Pastor Ken:we have to let them? We have to encourage them to prepare them for adulthood. So you got to hold the line on consequences. You know what? You're not going to the dance. Sorry, or you're not having the car this weekend. Sorry, you know, and you don't cave in. I don't care how much they throw a fit. I mean, teenagers can throw fits.

34:23Rachel:Yeah,

34:24Pastor Ken:they throw things through the walls. Not going on their. You're just not sorry.

34:27Rachel:Not

34:28Pastor Ken:right. There are consequences because I'm trying to prepare you for adulthood. Right. That's my job. Yeah. Right. We did

34:35Rachel:the. You're not going on spring break with your friends to Mexico, but instead you get to go on a sibling trip with your siblings, skiing and doing what you love to do with your siblings. And he, after graduation and a year or so went by,

34:49Pastor Ken:he was happy. He said, "My spring

34:50Rachel:break was like a dream come true. Like I am so glad that I got to do that with my siblings.

34:54Pastor Ken:Right,

34:55Rachel:and so you know, so those are the

34:57Pastor Ken:four stages that yeah, you know, we we. Kind of broke down for the parents, and that last one I think is is so key. You know, the teenage years. You, I think, you got to pray for wisdom, and you really got to be on your knees and ask God for wisdom. And that's how the Lord helped me, because it was just God that something changed in my spirit, just popped, and I didn't want to do what I did with Nathan. You know, I didn't want to react the way I did with him. And in the long run, it really it saved all of us. It saved my relationship with my son Nathan. It it really deepened my relationship with Ian. Even to this day, we still have talks once a week. We sit in the back and we talk, and it's really so. It really blessed us. And and if I didn't change that way that I did things, I wouldn't have my boys today, right? And so you can change. I want people to know they can change. It doesn't matter how you were raised. I I wasn't raised by the most, my father loved me, but he didn't know how to show it. I knew he loved me, but it's different when you say you love somebody, but you don't know how to show it. And so, yeah, but I don't use that as a crutch,

36:13Rachel:right?

36:13Pastor Ken:I don't. You know, we have to be responsible. We're asking our kids to be responsible. Well, we have to be responsible, and we have to change. So, so good. What What do you do? Another, you know, about discipline. And I thought of this: is what do we do with strong-willed children? I mean, this is a tough one with kids being strong-willed.

36:36Rachel:Well, first thing, I think parents need to stop calling their kids a strong-willed child.

36:41Pastor Ken:Labeling them. Yeah,

36:42Rachel:you don't need to label your kid what they are. You don't, and you should never bad mouth your kid. I hear parents, I hear parents sometimes come around me and they're like, their kids are right there, and they're like, oh, my kids are driving me crazy today, and it makes me feel bad. I'm like, wow, they're right there, and they're hearing you say that. Like hurts my heart, you know. So I want parents to be more aware of what they're saying with their kids around. You might feel that way, but you need to have you need to have a more of a filter.

37:06Pastor Ken:Yeah,

37:06Rachel:because you're hurting them. You're literally setting them up for failure.

37:10Pastor Ken:Right,

37:10Rachel:because they're hearing over and over again that they're a pain, that they're a problem.

37:14Pastor Ken:Yeah,

37:14Rachel:that they're interfering, that they're getting in the way, that they're trouble, that they're strong-willed, that they don't listen.

37:20Pastor Ken:So they're going to be that

37:21Rachel:exactly. You become what you hear you spoke over you over and over, and

37:25Pastor Ken:exactly

37:26Rachel:it really it really I cringe when I hear

37:28Pastor Ken:it. I

37:28Rachel:just cringe when I hear it. But yeah, don't enter every battle you're invited to. So strong willed children can turn almost anything into a contest.

37:37Pastor Ken:Yeah,

37:37Rachel:you know anything becomes a battle.

37:38Pastor Ken:Right,

37:39Rachel:what shirt they're wearing. We really didn't have strong-willed children.

37:42Pastor Ken:No, we didn't.

37:43Rachel:I mean, our kids were. We had a. You know, they were stubborn at times. We had some stubbornness at times with them, but they weren't strong-willed. We didn't have that. But you have to let kids have some freedom of decision,

37:54Pastor Ken:right?

37:54Rachel:Like you can't say, you know, this is what you're. You're having the yellow cup, and you're having the, you know, why? Why do you have to dictate down to what color a cup they have? Right. You know, like let them let them have some freedoms in areas where it doesn't really matter. Right. Because they're gonna feel like they won.

38:12Pastor Ken:Well, we go to that spine issue, a rib issue.

38:14Rachel:Yes.

38:15Pastor Ken:Right. It's not a spine issue that you choose a different cup than your brother or sister has. Yeah. Right. It's no big deal. Just grab a cup.

38:22Rachel:Let them pick things that don't matter. Right. You know, but the the the spine issues, the things that you want them to do, like they have to go to school, they have to you know do certain things. You know, all respect all the non-negotiables. Those are not no. But things like you know what chair when you're all going in to watch a movie and you're dictating where everyone's gonna sit, right? Don't dictate where everyone's gonna sit. Let the kids sit where they want to sit, right? It's well,

38:47Pastor Ken:I call it give choices with boundaries, right?

38:51Rachel:Yeah,

38:51Pastor Ken:and that's in life. I mean, we should we should do that with strong-willed children. You choose, but here's the boundaries,

38:58Rachel:yeah.

38:58Pastor Ken:Right? These are these are clothes that are appropriate, yeah. You know, depends on the age of the child, but you know, you choose.

39:04Rachel:You can pick from these. What do you want? Right. No, instead of the instead of arguing, laying out the red bathing suit and saying put that on,

39:10Pastor Ken:right, or or arguing before getting a fight before school. You're not wearing that. Don't wear that. You look like a hussy or whatever, or you know, your pants are too tight. Nobody's

39:21Rachel:gonna.

39:22Pastor Ken:So whatever. I mean, but parents do argue about things like that. So defuse the situation.

39:28Rachel:Yeah.

39:29Pastor Ken:Right. Go to the store. Let them pick out certain outfits. You set the boundaries.

39:36Rachel:Right. If you don't want them wearing tops, if you don't want them wearing a low cut shirt, showing the belly, then don't buy it.

39:42Pastor Ken:Exactly.

39:42Rachel:Don't have it. You're the one paying

39:44Pastor Ken:for it. They don't have money,

39:45Rachel:right? Because if it's in the house, they're gonna wear it.

39:48Pastor Ken:Exactly. And

39:48Rachel:then you're gonna have a fight.

39:49Pastor Ken:Exactly.

39:50Rachel:Yeah. So

39:51Pastor Ken:so you set the boundaries. I think that's a powerful point. You you set the boundaries everywhere you go. Right. It's like bedtime is 8:30. Yeah. Right. Okay, so I want you to, you know, would you like to brush your teeth first or put your pajamas on? You're setting the boundaries, but it's not negotiable. Bedtime is 8:30. You do whatever you want, but by 8:30, you're in bed. Right now, it's 9:45, and they haven't done anything, so they broke your boundaries, right?

40:17Rachel:Right.

40:17Pastor Ken:And you have to stay within that, that you know that the the scope and the boundaries of what you set

40:25Rachel:yeah

40:25Pastor Ken:and so I I think a lot of the parents who are having issues with strong will kids is they're not setting the boundaries correct and they're letting their children decide

40:37Rachel:they were they let their children become as Dr. Leman would say, "Powerful little buzzards.

40:42Pastor Ken:Yes.

40:43Rachel:If you've ever read anything by Dr. Leman, he's good man. He's the best when it is discipline. He

40:47Pastor Ken:is.

40:47Rachel:He calls these children powerful little buzzards, and he directly correlates them to the parents. Yeah. And he says there are no bad children. There's only bad parents.

40:57Pastor Ken:Right.

40:57Rachel:That's him, not me. I didn't say that.

40:59Pastor Ken:Right.

41:00Rachel:Dr. Leman says that.

41:01Pastor Ken:Well, it's just like there's no bad dogs, just bad dog owners. Dogs, dogs aren't bad. It's their environment. Yeah, the owners

41:09Rachel:train them properly. They don't train

41:10Pastor Ken:them properly. They don't. They're undisciplined.

41:13Rachel:Yeah.

41:13Pastor Ken:Same way with kids. Yeah. Right. I so I the clothing thing because I've had some questions. We've had questions like that come in, but in the past too, like what do I do? I'm like I'm outvoted. Well, come on, brother. The husband's outvoted. You have to set the boundaries. Your dad

41:32Rachel:has to set. You you have a meeting

41:33Pastor Ken:with your wife, and you say, "Listen, I do not. We're talking about girls here. I do not want cleavage to be shown with my daughters, I know how boys are at school. No, we're not doing that. So you and I are going to have a meeting right now. We're not doing dressing our girls like this. Yeah, and you don't leave that meeting till you agree.

41:54Rachel:Right. That's a

41:55Pastor Ken:that's that's non-negotiable for me as a dad.

41:58Rachel:Yeah.

41:58Pastor Ken:Because boys, I know how they are, and I know how they think. So, if you set that boundary with them, you're not going to have fights all the time. They come down the stairs, and you're like, "Oh my God, you can't wear that. You can't wear that to school. Well, Mom told me I could.

42:13Rachel:Now you got a war. Now you got a war in

42:15Pastor Ken:your family. Yeah, and it all is because you weren't the high priest of your home. You weren't the dad that you're supposed to be, you took a back seat. So a lot of this is we're taking back seats, and then then we want to deal with it when it's an issue.

42:30Rachel:Yeah,

42:30Pastor Ken:and you can't do that.

42:31Rachel:No, because then you got to backtrack, and you can backtrack, but it's a lot harder,

42:36Pastor Ken:for sure,

42:37Rachel:way harder.

42:38Pastor Ken:Yeah, so you know, and and I think, I you know this, and I know, you know you're fuddy duddy, you know that's just the way we dress today, and blah blah blah. You know what? Every generation has their issues.

42:54Rachel:Yeah,

42:55Pastor Ken:and I think in every generation, God is no respecter of persons, and He wants us to be men and women of character, of nobleness, and purity and integrity. Yeah. So you know that's how I would attack this because I know it's a big issue with a lot of parents. Cell phones too. Yeah. Usage of cell phones. We talked about this in one of the other podcasts. Yeah. But it's so you you give them choices, and and they say no to your choices, right? You set the boundaries. Then where do we go from there, right?

43:32Rachel:That privilege

43:33Pastor Ken:they lose the privilege. They do because it is a privilege. You're paying for it. You're

43:36Rachel:allowing it. It's a privilege. Right. Yeah. We go on really quickly and finishing up here. What if my child challenges my authority?

43:45Pastor Ken:Ooh, that's a tough. And

43:46Rachel:parents have to remain calm. You cannot you cannot demand respect. Respect is earned.

43:52Pastor Ken:Correct.

43:52Rachel:So if your children are not respecting you, then you really need to ask yourself why.

43:57Pastor Ken:Well, you need to look in the mirror.

43:58Rachel:What am I doing that's not respectful?

44:00Pastor Ken:Right.

44:00Rachel:Am I acting one way in public and acting differently at home? Because you'll lose your kids' respect faster than anything if you are two different people.

44:09Pastor Ken:Yeah, kids are not

44:10Rachel:stupid, and you know, and if they see laziness, you know, we talked about laziness. You and I had a conversation about lazy parenting. If if they see you as a lazy person,

44:21Pastor Ken:yeah,

44:22Rachel:they're not going to respect you.

44:23Pastor Ken:No, so

44:23Rachel:you can't expect respect from your children if you're if you're being lazy,

44:28Pastor Ken:right?

44:28Rachel:You know, you got to work hard. You got to keep your and I

44:30Pastor Ken:know it's tiring. You

44:31Rachel:got to you got to you got to clean your kitchen up, and you got to take your garbage out. You got to do the respectful things. Like, well, you know, they just see you being lazy all the time. They're gonna be lazy. They're gonna have a lazy spirit. Well, lazy habits.

44:44Pastor Ken:I had some friends in high school where the mom and dad they didn't do any chores. They made all the kids do all the chores, and I didn't think that was right either because my mom always kept a clean house, but she taught me how to clean my own bedroom.

44:56Rachel:Right.

44:56Pastor Ken:So my bedroom, I was responsible for my bedroom. You were

44:59Rachel:responsible for. Your space,

45:00Pastor Ken:right? But I cleaned it, yeah, right. And I was a neat freak, anyways. So even as a child, and and but I I would notice that my kid, oh, I can't come out and play ball right now because I'm I got to clean the house. I'm like, huh? My mom cleans the house. What what the heck? You know, I didn't understand that, right? And then I you know got into the home and understood that mom's watching soap operas and she's smoking her cigarettes and she ain't doing anything right, and that's the wrong attitude too. Yeah, you know I think our kids should work together. We all work together as a family. Everybody pitches in to

45:34Rachel:make the house work

45:35Pastor Ken:exactly. We all pitch in and do things right, and that same mentality is still here. I still have that mentality at the church. Just because we get our church clean professionally doesn't mean that if I see something, I'm all the cleaning lady will get that. No, I pick it up. It's just that's how I was raised. You know, if something's outside, Todd and I go get it. We we you know we don't wait for the lawn guys to get it. You know, we just go pick it up. It's just, but I think parents need to understand that they need to help around the house too. Right, your kids aren't slaves. Well, and that

46:08Rachel:goes back to don't exasperate your children.

46:10Pastor Ken:Yeah, you know,

46:11Rachel:you're sitting around watching them do stuff, and they're thinking, you know, why am I doing all this? Right, you're not, you know, and and there is a point to where you do want to teach your kids

46:20Pastor Ken:for sure

46:20Rachel:responsibility, and they should participate in keeping the house nice. But there has to be a balance there, or you won't have kids that respect you.

46:28Pastor Ken:No, they

46:29Rachel:will not respect you, and then you'll be the one saying, "I demand respect. Well, you can't. You can't demand respect. Respect is earned. It is never freely given. It just. I think the

46:39Pastor Ken:goal in this question number four is the goal isn't to prove who's stronger in a strong-willed child. They already know who the parent is, right? The goal is to teach them how to become stronger themselves, right? To teach them to make wise choices. What about one more question before we we sign off, what about spanking? You know the rod thing. You know in verses Proverbs where it says, "Whoever let me just read it for people. Proverbs 13:24 says this, and this is brought up a lot with parenting classes. Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them, so I think loving parents don't refuse to correct their children.

47:28Rachel:Yeah, the rod is just a symbol of correction. Correct. It's a symbol of guidance. It's not a symbol of to beat your children, getting them, rearing them over. Right. Come away. We don't believe in

47:37Pastor Ken:beating children.

47:38Rachel:No, come away from that and come over here instead. Right? Are there times where you need to pat little Johnny on the fanny and say, "No, I told you no, get away from there. Right? There's a difference between giving them getting his attention,

47:51Pastor Ken:right?

47:52Rachel:And beating them. I we never advocate for beating a child under any circumstance.

47:57Pastor Ken:Absolutely.

47:58Rachel:Yeah, the shepherd's rod represented authority, guidance, correction, and protection, and in the most loving way.

48:05Pastor Ken:I agree. The

48:06Rachel:most loving way.

48:08Pastor Ken:Yeah. Right. Yeah,

48:08Rachel:that's so good. Yeah.

48:09Pastor Ken:I. Yeah. The rod. It's just a symbol. It's not. It's not that we get a rod. And and you know, I've had people tell me, oh, well, I got spanked with paddles with holes in them and made it even worse. And you know, I get

48:22Rachel:it.

48:22Pastor Ken:Yeah, you know, but we don't advocate beating your children. You know, we just do not. We don't agree with that. It's wrong, and there are some parents that don't believe in spanking at all, which I don't agree with either. I think, I think in this area, you have to have a balance, and not every, not every crime, not every punishment fits punishment fits the crime for a spank. Well, I

48:49Rachel:think it's most effective, honestly, in children under like seven, maybe eight.

48:53Pastor Ken:Yeah, I

48:54Rachel:think it would be more gearing younger children that are just being defiant.

48:58Pastor Ken:Right, and there are defiant children

49:00Rachel:straight out, you know, rebellion or dis, you know, disobedience when they're little like that, it kind of gets their attention. But again, shouldn't be causing harm to them,

49:12Pastor Ken:right?

49:12Rachel:But yeah,

49:13Pastor Ken:this is, you know, we could go on for another hour or so, but this is a difficult subject, and we are here for you, right? We're here for you, parents. We just want you to know we love you. We know this is a very hard subject. So as we close out week three, your goal isn't to raise your children who behave perfectly whenever you're watching, right? Your goal is something much bigger. I think it's raising adults who eventually choose to do the right thing, right? And so, what is that? Well, we have to stay consistent. We have to choose our battles wisely with our kids. We don't discipline from anger. Let consequences be their teacher. Give increasing responsibilities to your kids. I think that's important. Keep communication open. So important. My wife was treated horribly. She got the silent treatment from her mom, and it hurt her deeply. And there, there were years when we first got married that I had to help my wife with that. So you, you don't, you don't just not talk to your kids. You keep communication open, and above all, everything else. Let your children know that correction never changes their place in your heart. Even when you discipline them, even when there are consequences, let them know that you love them and that you care for them and you want them to be successful. And what they did was wrong, but the but but we're going to deal with it, and and we're going to stop this behavior in a loving way. And so I think that really shows what the picture of the heart of our heavenly Father is. So it's hard. We know it. Rachel and I have experienced it. Now we're we're helping with our grandkids and loving on them and helping them, and I love pouring into my kid, my grandkids. And of course, I do it a different way. It's not my job to discipline them, but I can coach them, and I can say, you know, Graham, maybe you shouldn't talk that way. Maybe you should say it this way, or you know, it's a total different perspective now for me as a as a granddad, as Big Poppy, you know to to help my grandkids know the difference between right and wrong in a loving way, and you can do that, parents. So that that really is the the heart of the father. So that's all the time that we have tonight. It flies by so fast. We'll be back next week with some more questions of you. We're spending the rest of the month of September with you on this subject, so keep sending those parenting questions to us, and we're going to continue to talk about real issues and real issues that families are facing every day. So until next time, keep the faith, keep moving forward, and keep it real. God bless you. We love you very much, and we'll see you next time on Real Talk with PK.