How to deal with toxic family

00:09Pastor Ken:When family becomes unhealthy, how do you deal with difficult extended family in a Christian way? Today on Real Talk. Welcome back to Real Talk with PK and all month we've been talking about parenting and answering real questions from real parents. And today we're wrapping up this series with a difficult question. How do you deal with toxic external family in a Christian way? So maybe it's a grandparent, maybe it's a sibling and in law and aunt and uncle. Maybe it's somebody who constantly criticizes your parenting. Maybe you've undermined the bound... maybe they've undermined the boundaries you've established with your kids. Maybe there's some manipulation, guilt, gossip, constant drama. And whenever you try to establish some distance, somebody says those four words. Here you go. But we're your family and suddenly you feel guilty because as a Christian you start wondering, am I supposed to just tolerate this? Does forgiveness mean I have to keep letting someone hurt us? If I establish boundaries, am I being unloving? How do I protect my family while still honoring Christ? Those are very important questions, and I want to start with one principle. Being a Christian doesn't mean having no boundaries. It means our boundaries should be established with truth, with grace, with wisdom, and with love. And with that, I say hello to my best friend and my wife of 37 years, Rachel. Welcome into this conversation.

02:17Rachel:How have you been? I've been great, I've been great. This is this is another great zinger that we've been given today. So love the talk about family and how it affects.

02:27Pastor Ken:Your Yeah, we are ending this whole month with a bang. Yes, I'm sure this is going to strike up lots of conversations on social media. Everybody's got that dreaded uncle. Well. You know, the difficult one of the bunch, and I mostly.

02:44Rachel:Hear. You know, we mostly hear the

02:45Pastor Ken:mother-in-law. Yeah, the mother-in-law jokes.

02:47Rachel:That's. The one that usually gets the most you know their name goes in headlines the most.

02:51Pastor Ken:Right. Yep, Yep. So you know, these are going to be good. These are going to be good. And this is a real question that came in from one of our people in our church. And, and I know that everyone has dealt with this subject, so I figured we would this is our last podcast of the month on parenting. Well, you know, parenting podcast for September. I thought we'd end on a bang since, you know, we're at the end of September. So now we go into October and they're here right around the corner is the holidays. So then all all what we're going to talk about is going to be, yeah, a lot of that people come

03:31Rachel:into play. Yep.

03:33Pastor Ken:So question number one that they had was what actually makes a family relationship unhealthy? What actually makes family relationships unhealthy? And I think we should be careful here because you and I, we all live in a culture where sometimes anybody who frustrates us gets labeled toxic. And and that's not true, right? Sometimes if you disagree, you, you, it, it doesn't automatically make them toxic. You just have different views, right? So instead of, I want to say this at the beginning, instead of labeling people, let's look at their patterns of their behavior, right? Let's look at if they continue to be manipulative, controlling guilt, you know, verbal abuse. Yeah, constant criticism, gossip, you know, dishonesty,

04:30Rachel:boundary violations. Yeah, then we got patterns of behavior. Yeah, instead of just pulling them toxic. And we actually have, we actually have something we can address.

04:39Pastor Ken:Yes, yeah, yes. So I think that's important that we get that out on the table. You know the Bible says in Matthew chapter 7, I think it's verse 16. By their fruit you will recognize them. I think that's what it says. It's the fruit, right by their

04:55Rachel:fruit. Consistently produce, yes, you know, is having this person in our life, does it bring peace? Does it bring growth? Does it does it bring respect? Or does it cause fear, chaos, division, right? And all kinds of emotional and dramatic things, right? You know, and everybody, most everybody could probably say that they do have an element of this somewhere in their family. I'm sure they do. So really what we're trying to get at is, you know, how do you deal with this in a, in a godly way, right? Because we're, it's not whether you're going to deal with it or not, it's how you deal with it when it does happen. And so, yeah, we don't want to label people, but we also don't want to ignore destructive patterns either because we are the, we are the guardian of our house and what happens within our walls and what happens to our children. And not that we can protect them from everything, but there are some things that do need

05:46Pastor Ken:protecting. I agree, Yeah. And there. And if we're honest, there are toxic people in families, and we do have to guard against that. So I'm kind of glad that this subject came up because this has been one that has come to me a lot in 30 years of ministry. You know, what do I do with my dad? He's so toxic, you know, And so it has been an issue for many, many people. So as a Christian, here's a question for you. As a Christian, should I just forgive them? You know, since we're talking

06:21Rachel:about toxic people. So forgiving is, you know, we, we can always forgive people and we should forgive them, but it doesn't mean that you just forgive them, but then let them have access to your children or let them. Forgive and forget. Right. You know, yeah, no, we you can forgive people for their behavior, but it doesn't mean that you have to give them a

06:39Pastor Ken:platform to affect your... Forgiveness and access are

06:42Rachel:not the same thing. No, they're not. And I also don't think just because someone's a family member that you should just let them have access to your children. If, if you know that they constantly undermine your parenting, they undermine your authority, they may be parent in a different way than you do and you don't want that affecting. Maybe they have anger issues. You know, I'll, I'll give a personal example here. You know, when I, when we started having children, we didn't initially live in the Detroit area, but all of our family lived here. And so when we would come into the area to visit, if if you and I had something that we had to do, our kids always went to your mom's because your mom was the one that we preferred to watch our children or to your sisters because we knew that our children would be in a healthy, loving environment and we wouldn't have to worry about anything. You know, if you and I took a vacation, it was your mom that came and watched our kids for us. Or if we need to get away for

07:40Pastor Ken:the weekend. Or would you classify your

07:42Rachel:mother as toxic? So I don't know if she would have called herself that, but I didn't want my mom. I didn't want the things that. Affected.

07:52Pastor Ken:No, I said. Would you call your mom toxic?

07:55Rachel:Not your mom. I mean, maybe I I tried not to. I would have. My mom was a narcissist. She had narcissistic tendencies, right? She was. And I didn't want that to impact our children. I didn't want our kids. I really tried to keep my mom at arm's length from our children. Yeah, because I didn't want my kids swayed by my mom. I know that sounds really cold, but I didn't want them to feel guilted into to appeasing her throughout their lives.

08:25Pastor Ken:Yeah, and she could put a guilt trip on.

08:28Rachel:That's just how she operated and and so I really did.

08:33Pastor Ken:Well, and she was bitter. She was one of the most she was bitter people I've ever met. Very bitter. She held grudges like no other. She could.

08:41Rachel:And she was a very angry person. And I just knew what she was capable of based on my own childhood. Yeah. And so, you know, hurt people hurt people. My mom was a very hurt person. Good, you probably say that again. Hurt people, hurt people. Yeah. And I knew what my mom was capable of. Yeah. And I didn't just want to give my mom access to my kids to get in good graces with my mom, right? You know, if my mom didn't like it, it was kind of like my opinion was kind of tough toenails. These are my children, and I'm not letting what happened to me happen to them. And I didn't see the change in my mom that I would have liked to have seen early on to know that that that wasn't going to

09:24Pastor Ken:happen. Right.

09:25Rachel:And so as a mom, I had to protect my kids. Yeah. And so my our kids went to your

09:31Pastor Ken:mom. They did.

09:32Rachel:And it was just the way that it was. And I was unapologetic about it. You know, I just, if my mom questioned me about it, I would just say, well. Oh, and she did. And you know Mom. She did a couple of times. You know, Joyce has our kids and if you want to see them, you're welcome to come over anytime. You know, she was welcome to come around anytime in the confines of of me being there to supervise things. But I wasn't going to let my kids be in a situation with her where, you know, she was going to snap and lash out at them and they wouldn't have anybody there to defend them or help them. I just didn't want there to be a terrible memory that my kids were going to have to cope with for the rest of their life because I just knew what my mom was capable of. And, and, and sadly, you know, it breaks my heart to say that, but it was, it was, it was difficult. And so she did end up dying when she was 66 years old, very young. So she was very young. Our kids were very young. So they don't really have a lot of memory of her, but but yeah, as a parent, you have to make some tough calls sometimes. Yeah. And I know it's easier just to say, oh, you guys, you're just gonna go to grandma's and it's OK 'cause it's only gonna be a few hours and just be careful. Like she can get really mean sometimes or she could lash out and but you guys will be OK. And I didn't want to have to do that because I, I didn't know what would become of that. And I didn't want to. You can't go back and undo

10:55Pastor Ken:something once it's already done, right?

10:57Rachel:And so I just had, we made a decision when we started having kids that my mom was not going to watch our children, right. And it's OK to, to draw those kind of, you know, boundaries. Sometimes that's not it's not the end of the world.

11:11Pastor Ken:Well, I like to say forgiveness is given, but trust is rebuilt. And if you lose that trust, then access requires wisdom, right? And I think a lot of parents, you know, they let their wisdom fall. They don't use it. And it's like, well, it's just my mom.

11:33Rachel:It's just my dad. She's not going to do anything.

11:35Pastor Ken:Right. And when that day happens and they do do something and they yell or whatever, and they hurt your child, you know, in a way that you don't want that to happen, then you're not, you're not protecting your child the way I believe the Lord wants us to put boundaries up. Boundaries is not a bad thing, especially when you're dealing with toxic personalities. And so I, I just, we call a spade a spade, you know what I mean? We're just, I think in, in our world today, we just have to be honest. And your mom didn't like it. So there's a couple of times that she called us and she said, well, why does Kenneth's mom have them again?

12:17Rachel:And we had. To be honest, I was challenged a

12:19Pastor Ken:lot. You were a lot.

12:21Rachel:Challenged a lot and I just. I you had to stand up for it.

12:24Pastor Ken:And so we understand the, the pressure of what parents are feeling. You know, well, you go to, you go to, let's say John's house, you go to John's house, parents more than you come to here. Why is that right? And you just have to be honest, because it's a better atmosphere and we want our children in healthy atmosphere. It's about the kids, right? And I think if you focus on the kids and about the kids, then they can't argue with that because deep down inside they know they're toxic. Every person does. They know they're, they're toxic and they got issues. So either you, you know, you address the elephant in the room, so to speak, or you kind of walk on pins and needles. I'd rather address the elephant in the room myself. You know, I, I don't, I hated to walk around pins and needles. I, I don't like that.

13:14Rachel:So we. Didn't, and we didn't. We were straightforward and then after a while it just it just.

13:18Pastor Ken:Kind of. It is what it is. It kind of followed. Yeah, they stopped challenging you and and they just accept it because deep down inside they know. And your mom did. She just accepted it. And I think that's a good thing for parents who are going to listen to this podcast. Understand that. Don't let your guard down and don't cave in when you're being challenged. Yeah, don't cave to pressure. Don't cave. Yeah, be strong because the greatest treasure that you have is your children and they're at risk, right? So you can't, you know, the last podcast we talked about a redo. Well, you can't do a redo when you're willingly and knowingly putting your child in a toxic situation. I felt that's not a redo. I.

14:00Rachel:Felt I was putting, I would be putting my kids in harm's way. Exactly. And I wasn't.

14:04Pastor Ken:We weren't. That's not a redo, no. So I, I want to make that clear because I, you know, people listen to this and they're like, well, last you talked about redo. That's not a redo.

14:13Rachel:A redo, a redo is almost like more like a regrouping like, you know, we, we've made a bad decision here and we're not doing that anymore. We're going to, we're drawing a line in the sand and we're not going there again. We're not doing that again. We're not allowing that again. Exactly. You know, those are the situations that we are referring.

14:29Pastor Ken:To so another question was so is it Christian to establish boundaries with your family? And I say it is because we did that with you. I, I even point to the Bible. I I tell people even Jesus had boundaries. Yeah, He did. He withdrew from the crowds. They didn't want Him to, like, where are you going, Master, where are you going? And He withdrew, He withdrew from His own disciples. So I think I think it's fine and I do think it's OK to do that because that's what the Lord did. Proverbs chapter 4 verse 23 says this above all else, guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. So boundary A boundary isn't necessary. And this is about I should say it this way. A boundary isn't necessarily I hate you. That's not what it is. It's some a boundary says I love you. But this behavior continues in our relationship. It will sour it so. And I can't allow. It and I can't allow it. So I just want people to understand that, that if you, if you want to be involved in our life, then we're going to have, we're going to have to set some boundaries here. Just like let's say you have an alcoholic family member. Alcoholism is a terrible thing. If they can't stay sober, they can't be around you. I mean, if they're around you, they can't be drinking because they don't know when to stop, right? So that's, that's an example. I mean, it's a, you know, it's not extreme because alcoholism is a real thing and it hurts a lot of families. So I think that's one that, you know, you put boundaries around and say, you know what, you

16:19Rachel:can't hang. Around we have a couple of examples. You know, one would be mom, we want you involved in our children's lives, but you cannot criticize us in front of them, right? You're not going to tear me down in front of my kids or we'd love to spend time together, but if yelling and insults begin, we're leaving. Or you don't have to agree with our parenting decisions, but you do need to respect them, right? You know, I have a funny story about your mom. When I first came into your family, Eric and Justin were little, and Justin was probably at the time, maybe 8 months old when I came into the family. And so we were hanging out at your house one night and Tanya and Mike dropped the kids off. I think they had to go to choir practice or something. And your sister said to your mom, don't give him any Doritos. Don't give Justin Doritos. I don't want him having any. And your mom was like, yeah, yeah, go, go, go. And so Tanya and Mike left and they weren't even out of the driveway yet. And your mom was already putting him in the high chair and putting Doritos on top of his high chair tray. And I just cracked up. I'm just like I. Remember that she. Apparently did not hear her daughter tell her do not give Justin Doritos. He doesn't need any. Yeah, I just thought, wow, she's just going to do whatever she wants. She's grandma and she's given that baby Doritos and that's all that matters. And I I think they didn't hurt him. I didn't hurt him. But that's kind of. I mean, those kind of things are fine. That's a grandma being a grandma. Yeah, right. You know, we 2 funny things too, that we kind of say whatever and our kids, when they and when Bethany tells us something, she almost knows we're not going to listen to her, you know, when it comes to something like that.

17:45Pastor Ken:Well, we have to listen to her. We have to listen to Sully because, yeah, you know, he has diabetes, but.

17:51Rachel:If she says, you know, the kids can only watch one show, well, sure. Wrong. They're watching 2 shows. Yeah, right. You know we don't always listen to not.

17:59Pastor Ken:Going to tell Leah she can't watch her show?

18:01Rachel:Are you kidding? Me, yeah. They're just so happy watching their little shows at Nani and

18:04Pastor Ken:Poppy's house. That's right.

18:06Rachel:But you know, they're that's that those are fun things. Those are fun things that, you know, you kind of go back and forth with your adult children, with their children. But you know, when your when your child tells you, you know, I don't want you doing this. And then you have to honor that they're the parents. Not, not us. We're not the parents and we don't want to be, no.

18:25Pastor Ken:No, we are. We've done that.

18:26Rachel:Been there and done that. Did that already. We just want to be the fun grandparents that give lots of

18:30Pastor Ken:love and kisses. So in essence, in this question that this individual asked is a boundary isn't punishment, it's just it's clarity about I think what is required for a healthy relationship to flourish. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think boundaries are good. I did a podcast on it last year about healthy boundaries and relationships. So and they can they can look at that on our website and see it at Real Talk with PK. But if they want to listen to it, another question was what I thought was a very good one. What if extended family undermines our parenting? Yeah, and I guess it depends,

19:14Rachel:you know, if like the funny things like the food, I mean, that's those are silly things. But if if your if your parents are telling your kids things like your mom is too strict or your dad needs to, you know, do a better job of taking care of the lawn. You know, if your parents are bad mouthing you to your children, those kind of that's not OK, undermining you to your children, then you need to speak up and you need to say something, right? But parents should support what grandparents should support their children in parenting, not come against.

19:48Pastor Ken:Well, I would say parents have the primary responsibility for their children and not extended family, right? So grandma might say one thing, but. Our rules are enforced. We are the rule keepers in our family. Not grandma, not grandpa.

20:06Rachel:And. Then I also think like if your parents watch, like, say your mom watches your kids as a help to you when you're working, right, and you don't believe in discipline. You know, you don't want them ever going in time out and you don't want them to have to refrain from playing with a toy or they don't get to watch a show If they disobey and they're at grandma's house and grandma's like, no, Johnny, when you're here, if you don't listen to me, then you don't get to play. Or you have to sit in time out for 20 minutes and you have to think about what you did. And the parents don't provide any discipline at home. They're, they're not going to go to grandma and say, we don't want you disciplining them at your house either because that's not right. If grandma's watching them, she's got a, she's got rules in her house. And you're not just going to let these children be all unruly when they're in your house if they're in your care, you know, in that type of a setting. And so I can see where this can cause friction. And that's where communication comes in. Parents have to communicate with their kids, especially if they're in a role of a

21:05Pastor Ken:caregiver. I think they have to communicate with the one who's watching them too. Like Grandma. Yeah, I think that's the question, you know, is I think you have to sit down and talk to your parents, right, Grandma and grandpa and say we know that you love our children, we know that but and we want you to be involved in our life. But these boundaries that we as their parents have set up, we've established them. So we need you to support us in that like for instance, like a television show or a certain cartoon today, and we have this with Beth, there are certain cartoons that the kids can't watch and and we obey that. We're like we honor.

21:52Rachel:That now the kids are getting old enough, like if they actually get the TV turned on without us and they're watching something we say to them, are you allowed to watch this? Right. And they're four and six. You know Graham's going to be 7 and well.

22:03Pastor Ken:Graham will tell Leah. Leah. We can't. Mom says we can't watch this, so then I'll come in and she's like, and Graham will say, Poppy, we're not allowed to watch this, and then I'll turn it. Yeah. I'm like, well, oh, OK. Well, what is it?

22:15Rachel:They're now, it's kind of nice because now they're getting to the age they just remember like, Oh no, we're not allowed to watch the show. And they don't go out there seeking shows that they're not allowed to watch, but they just kind of happen upon it when they're clicking through. And so then we're able to say to them, like, are you guys allowed to watch that? But.

22:30Pastor Ken:Me being the individual that I'm, I'm always asking the why, like, well, why does mom say you? Can't watch it? Watch that. Sometimes grandma will tell me, sometimes he just doesn't know

22:41Rachel:she. Just doesn't like it makes her it makes her annoyed. Yeah, or something, I don't

22:44Pastor Ken:know, redundant or whatever, but I don't know anyways. But we do honor that and and so I think that's where, you know, if if you have difficult parents. So we're talking to parents of parents like grandma and grandpa who are difficult and think it's stupid. You have to have an honest conversation with them and say listen mom and dad, we need your help in this. Yeah, it's not if. You, If you want our kids to be around you, you have to honor what we want. I think it just really boils down to that you have really got to have a one-on-one with grandma and grandpa and say, listen, we've noticed that you're very lax on things that we are not. We prefer that you be on the side of us in this because we're trying to raise our kids the right way. And I think if you have an honest conversation with people, they'll agree. Yeah, Now I know that there are some. Well, you don't know my parents, and they're so difficult, and I get that. Yeah. So I guess for a situation like that, then you're going to have

23:50Rachel:to make a decision. Right. I was going to say you got to go back to our earlier question. Yeah. Is it time to set up boundaries?

23:55Pastor Ken:Exactly. And then when they.

23:56Rachel:Say, well, how come we don't get them? We want them. You know what? Because we just can't have our. We don't. Agree not being here to. Right.

24:03Pastor Ken:And so, and that's hard. It is because you don't want your children not to be around them. So the only time that they're around grandma and grandpa is when you're around really, because they can't watch them because you let them do things that we're we don't agree with. So I guess that's where you're at in that scenario. It's a tough one. So either you're going to have to pay for babysitting at your house to go out for dinner, or you have the other set of grandparents that will watch them. So, you know, and it, it's not good. I mean I I hate that scenario, but sometimes you have to do that right?

24:41Rachel:It's not always convenient parenting. Sometimes you have to make some hard, hard choices.

24:45Pastor Ken:Right. It, it is. And it's tough. I mean, so question number six is what if you use guilt against me? Oh.

24:57Rachel:Yeah, guilt. The. Old guilt trip. Family can be good at this. After everything I've done for you, you know, after everything I've done. Or I guess your family doesn't need us anymore. Or if you really loved your

25:08Pastor Ken:mother. Yeah.

25:11Rachel:Yeah. And I think this one can get really sticky around the holidays. That's why I kind of like how our family, we sort of have a pretty set schedule with the holidays where we trade off. You know, we trade off Christmas and Christmas Eve every year. We, you know, we trade off with the kids coming over for Thanksgiving and if it's not our year to have the kids at Thanksgiving, it's just not our year to have them. Right, we don't pout about. It we don't pout about it, you know there's a saying. Love the one you're with. Some of you that are from the 70s or 80s know the song. If you can't be with the one you love, honey, then love the one you're with. Well, I like that, that line. Love the one you're with for when on a Thanksgiving when maybe two of our adult children and their families aren't with us for Thanksgiving. But we also, we have your sister come and we have a niece and nephew come with their kids and I have three of my other children and you're there and I'm there. We're loving each other. We're missing a few, but we're loving the ones we're with. Instead of lamenting and pouting and putting guilt trips on our kids for not being there, we're just enjoying whoever comes, you know, and when you live life like that, not trying to control your kids and guilt them into things, your life is a whole lot better and you enjoy the holidays a lot more. And it's not, it's not putting undue stress on them to be guilted into things. Now, if you're on the other side of it and you have a parent that's guilting you, you just can't let that guilt control you. You know, we kind of had to deal with that a lot with my side of the family. I was guilted, you know, attempted to be guilted quite a bit and, and I would feel bad about it. I mean, I shed tears over it at times. Yeah. It's really painful to be guilted by a family member and to feel like maybe, you know, to question like, well, maybe I'm being too harsh here. Maybe I'm not doing the right

26:54Pastor Ken:thing here. Well, thank God for your Uncle Bill because they started having Thanksgiving, so when we'd come up from Missouri, it was easier to go to there than just to go

27:04Rachel:to your mom and dad's house. So my sweet uncle and aunt would have Thanksgiving and we loved. Being there with them. Because he's a beautiful. Environment. Yeah, it was. And it was just such a great, great time. But I, you know, it's hard when you have family that guilts you. It is very hard. But you still have to ask yourself if you're being true to yourself. Or am I just caving to this guilt because a person is happiest when they're, when everything that they do lines up with their highest ideals. And so if you're caving to guilt, but now you're not honoring your highest ideals, you're going to be a very miserable person. And so you have to ask yourself, am I caving to something that I'm going to regret later because I'm not being true to myself? And that's not right either. And so those moments are super crucial. And you really do have to, you do have to stand up for what your heart is telling you, even if it's standing up to guilt. And you'll be, you'll be better for it in the long run. It, it, it's a tough thing, though. I've been through it. I I I'm not trying to make it sound easy.

28:01Pastor Ken:Yeah, well, it's not. No, it's not. It's very difficult. These are, I mean, dealing with difficult family members is difficult. It is one of the hardest things it's. Really hard to do. Yeah. Gosh, and you just, you know what, when I was dealing with your mother, when I first came into your family, I was just, I listened a lot like I was, I was quiet. It was hard for me to stay quiet, but I was and.

28:34Rachel:I appreciated you. I mean, it's a little off topic, but I appreciated you like you were quiet even to me. Like you didn't you didn't badmouth my family to me. No, because you don't want to hurt me. And you knew that what I was dealing with was already painful enough that you didn't need to pile on. And I always appreciated that about you, that you just let the situation kind of speak for itself. You supported me when I needed support. I only remember one time that you actually said to me, it was kind of near the end, you said, if you don't stand up for yourself in this situation, I'm making a call to your mother. I'm getting involved because I can't watch this another minute because something really terrible had happened. And it was actually right before my mom passed away. And you had had it. It was when my father passed away and and you, it was the first time that I ever felt like, Oh no, he's getting involved. And if I don't do something here, he's going to make a phone call and I'm really not going to want him to be involved in this. And so, but you never piled on. You never badmouth my mom. I know you thought it. I know you felt it and you had the effects of it. You were dealing with the effects of it too, but you knew that I what I was dealing with was painful enough and you didn't need to get involved. And I always appreciated that about you. So thank you for that. You're welcome.

29:58Pastor Ken:Well, it was just God because, you know, I didn't want to, like you said, pile on. But it was just the Lord that helped me to keep my mouth shut because I I didn't want to.

30:08Rachel:Well, you know, siblings are like, like siblings, you know, they can tell each other, they can yell at each other at times and, you know, get after each other. But if somebody from the outside says something about one of them, our kids are like, put up your Dukes and fight, you know, people protect each other to the death, you know, but nobody else, you know, nobody else can say anything about them. But they can get after each other for sure, you know, And

30:29Pastor Ken:it's just kind of a funny. That's how it is though, yeah. Yeah. The last question on this is when is distance appropriate? I think what they're asking is, is that should should the distance, should we distance ourselves with difficult? Yeah.

30:48Rachel:And I mean, I think it, I really do think that you have to be prayerful about it. I mean, where are we talking distance? Like I'm not going to invite that person to Thanksgiving because when they come for Thanksgiving, they make a scene or they come and they're totally drunk and they. I'm not sure what they change the whole. Atmosphere. I think it would depend on the situation. Yeah, I think that's maybe what it is. And I think. You really do have to be prayerful about it. I mean, you don't want to excommunicate a family member unnecessarily, so maybe stuff maybe you need. Well, maybe they could make a

31:16Pastor Ken:phone call to the individual, right? And maybe clarify some expectations that they might have of the situation established on the phone,

31:26Rachel:established boundaries. I love you and I want you a part of our life, but I can't have this.

31:30Pastor Ken:Maybe give them opportunities to for an exchange talk about it before they come for like Thanksgiving or Christmas. Maybe seek wise counsel with somebody else that's been through difficult family affair. Yeah, you know, and you just need wise counsel and pray about it.

31:48Rachel:Yeah. But I I agree that sometimes you just have to put distance between if yeah. If if sometimes you have. You've had a pattern of the same

31:57Pastor Ken:thing. Yeah.

31:58Rachel:You know, we didn't want our kids memories of holidays to to be devastating, right? So we were protective about how we spent them in we, we had to make some tough choices sometimes, you know, as a result of that.

32:10Pastor Ken:Well, the Bible says if at all possible as as far as it depends on you, live at peace. And I like how it says as far as it depends on you, it's like, really, Lord? He was. Live at peace with everyone.

32:28Rachel:He was really insightful on that one.

32:30Pastor Ken:So I love the realism of that verse, if it is possible. So sometimes peace requires proximity. Maybe, maybe you need that? Distance allows the opportunity

32:41Rachel:that sometimes it's just not possible.

32:43Pastor Ken:Right. And you know you need space for

32:47Rachel:safety. Right.

32:48Pastor Ken:Right. And you know, how can I? How can I hurt them back or, or you know, how, how do I, how do I establish boundaries if they hurt me and then I want to hurt them back, right That you know, you, you just don't want to do that kind of stuff. So. Right. I I think distance is a good thing. It just depends on the situation and the circumstance and the individual, whether they're, you

33:14Rachel:know. I have just kind of a funny story. It's not a family member, but you know, I'm in real estate and I had a client probably four years ago now and he was an alcoholic at the beginning of the transaction. He was a single guy. He was selling a condo in Novi and he said and he was old. He was, he was definitely older. And he said to me, he goes now, Rachel, I only want you to call me every day until about 2:00.

33:38Pastor Ken:Oh, I remember. This guy, Yeah.

33:39Rachel:I thought you're going to remember. And he goes, because if you call me after 2:00, I'm not going to be talking with a full deck because I start drinking around noon and by 2:00 you are not going to want to talk to me. So call me before 2:00 or if I call you and it's after 2:00, don't take my call. Oh my gosh.

34:00Pastor Ken:Because. I might be.

34:01Rachel:Really lit up about something and I don't want you to get the wrath of it. Wow. And so I was like. Wow. He, this guy's setting his own boundaries. Yeah. Like he already knows, like what he's capable of. Yeah. And so I was mindful that whole way through, like if I had to call him with the situation or whatever, I'm like, oh, it's after 2:00. Forget it. I'm not calling him, you know, But anyway, I just think that I mean, it, it can apply in, in a, in a sense like you, you learn people and you start to just realize like this is what we're going to have to do because this is the pattern of this person. And so I mean, I know that sounds really extreme, but there are some extreme situations in families. And ultimately you're the parent and you have to be the, the doorkeeper for your family. When your children are are still adolescent, you are there. You're responsible for them.

34:57Pastor Ken:Yeah, that was pretty transparent of that guy to. I thought it was kind of being. I thought it was kind of being.

35:04Rachel:Ridiculous at first, but then I was like, oh, wow, OK, you know, Yeah, So, well, kind. Of closing this out.

35:11Pastor Ken:So what does healing or what does dealing with an unhealthy extended family in a Christian way look like? Maybe that's what somebody's thinking about. And I think it you forgive without pretending that nothing happened, right? You don't, you don't do that, right? You love without enabling destructive behavior. You can love somebody that's toxic, right? You can speak truth without being cruel. I think that's what we did with your mom. We spoke the truth without being cruel about it. You can set boundaries without seeking revenge. Like we're putting fences up and you're not crossing them, you're not coming over. Right? Loving it was definitely.

35:55Rachel:Loving right, it was that we need to do this, but I think

35:58Pastor Ken:ultimately you. Protect your child without teaching them hatred. You know, how come I don't see Uncle so and so? It's well, it's because you know, he's going through some difficult things, right? And so you can teach your children without teaching them hatred, right? And I think this is so important. Leave the door open no matter how toxic our family gets right with people, always leave the door open for genuine repentance, right? And, and I think and change whatever you need to change to be safe and to be wise about the situation. And I think that's so important. The Bible says in Romans chapter 12, verse 21 says do not be, do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. So, you know, you can't control whether they apologize or not, you can't control whether they change or not. You can't control what they say about you. And but you can control whether you're being bitter, right, or the final words that you say to that individual are cutthroat and mean, right? So I know this is a very difficult subject. We've lived it, yeah, and at times we still live it. And, you know, it's tough, but it's something that I think all families have to deal with. I pray that somehow we gave a little bit of wisdom of how to deal with it. We feel for you. It's not easy.

37:33Rachel:And never give up on those. Difficult family members. And just as a real quick FYI, my mom did come to the Lord before she passed away, thank God, which was just glorious. So I I. Agree with that.

37:44Pastor Ken:So, and I'm thankful for that too. That was man that meant the world to us, that she came to know Christ. as her Lord and Savior, So I think, I think friends, sometimes loving someone like Jesus means this: embracing them. Sometimes it means forgiving them. Sometimes it means confronting them, sometimes it means loving them wisely, and it means establishing enough distance that destructive behavior can no longer damage your family and trusting God in the meantime. And I think those are key. So boundaries and love don't have to be enemies. They don't. Sometimes I think healthy boundaries are one expression of love. And we did that and and we believe in that. So I want to pray for us and I want to pray for families who find it difficult to be around each other and that somehow, someway God will use us and, and speak in these difficult situations that families face and heal them. So Father, we, we thank You for for wisdom that we can have in our family situations that many people face today. Lord, help us. Lord, I pray, help us to know when to speak, when to listen, when to forgive. Lord, when to establish a boundary, when to create some distance. Lord, we pray that protect our marriages, protect our kids. God, keep us from a bitter root that could take root in our hearts. God, I pray, show us where we need to change. Maybe, maybe something in us needs to give a little bit where a relationship has been broken. We ask You to bring repentance. We ask You to bring healing and restoration whenever possible. Father, we pray. Help us to represent You, Jesus, in the most, in the most difficult situations that we have. Lord, I pray that Your light will shine through us. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen. Well, that's all the time that we have today on this topic. And you know what? That brings us to the end of our parenting series here on Real Talk with PK. Man, what a month. Great. It's been a lot of good questions. We've talked a lot about raising teenagers, faith and doubt, phones, technology, money, church, dating, discipline, strong-willed children. That was a good one. Parents who struggle with themselves and today. Difficult extended family relationships. But if I could leave parents with one thought from this entire month, I think it would be this. You don't have to parent perfectly. You have to parent faithfully. And so your children, they don't need perfection, they just need your presence. They need your love. They need you to set boundaries. They need your examples, and they need your prayers. And I think most importantly, they need you to continually point them toward Jesus. There will be days when we get it right, and there will be days when we blow it. And when we blow it, we own it. We own it and we ask God to forgive us. We receive God's grace. We get back up on that horse. We ride it. We keep on parenting because that's what God wants us to do. Because we're not simply raising children who behave well while they're under our roof. We are raising adults who will someday walk out of our doors and make decisions for themselves. So our prayer is that when they do that, they will know who they are, they will know where their home is, and above all else, they will know Jesus. So thank you, Rachel, for joining me this month on our podcast. It's been wonderful and hopefully many parents will be helped. So friends, until next time, keep the faith, keep moving forward, keep it real. God bless you. We love you and we'll see you next time on Real Talk with PK.