Questioning what you've always believed

00:07Pastor Ken:Welcome to another episode of Real Talk with PK. And today it's going to be a little bit different. Instead of me teaching on a subject, I'm going to have a conversation with a really good buddy. He's got a story that has power, I believe, to touch a lot of people. Justin spent years in a very strict religious system known as Oneness Pentecostalism. He wasn't just attending. It shaped his beliefs, his ministry, his understanding of God's Word. But through studying Scripture, him and his wife began a journey. God took them on a powerful journey that changed everything in their life. So today it isn't about attacking people, it's about pursuing the truth, loving people, and allowing God's word to speak to us, to change us. So today, that's what we're going to dive into on Real Talk with PK.

01:15Pastor Ken:All right, I want to welcome in my good friend Justin Burrell into the podcast room. How are you, my friend?

01:23Justin:Dude, I'm doing great. You know, surviving the very temperamental Michigan summers we're having here. So we're making our way through.

01:30Pastor Ken:We had a cool down finally. We've had anywhere from 65-degree weather, rain storms that bring down trees, 97-degree weather, like 800% humidity.

01:43Justin:Oh, and then of course the Mad Max style movie, you know, with the air and everything else. So to be honest, I'm done with summer.

01:50Pastor Ken:Todd and I, the last three weeks, I think Todd, it was near 100 degrees with the heat index. I mean, it's been boiling out there.

02:01Justin:You know, I spent three years in Oklahoma, and I moved back north to get away from this.

02:05Pastor Ken:Well, at least there you can actually blame tornadoes.

02:09Justin:Well yes, but then straight line winds are bringing trees down. I don't know how far away from tornadoes I've actually gotten.

02:13Pastor Ken:That's true. Well, I'm going to tell you, I have been looking forward to this interview. I've been wanting to do it for a long time now, and I'm glad that you could come in and do this with me. So tell our listeners about yourself. Who is Justin outside of ministry?

02:33Justin:Outside of ministry, first and foremost, I am a husband. My wife and I are coming up on 10 years on October 28th.

02:43Pastor Ken:Nice.

02:44Justin:Still mind boggling to me that she has put up with me for 10 whole years.

02:48Pastor Ken:You know, I agree with that, dude. I married... I way out-punted my coverage, dog.

02:53Justin:I did too. Praise God. Yeah, I always say she had that pollen anointing, you know, the scales on the eyes. After the scales fell off I'm like, you already said I do, so no take backs. So I am a husband coming up on 10 years with my beautiful wife Katelyn. I am a father to two boys, Judah who is 6, and then Levi who is 4. Downtime, I love chilling outside. I love reading. I love doing anything and everything with my family. Love going to the good old Lake Michigan beaches over on the west side. West side is the best side.

03:30Pastor Ken:Beautiful.

03:31Justin:During the winter, love doing some winter sport stuff. My family snowmobiles a lot, so getting back into that now that I'm back in the place that has snow. So yeah.

03:41Pastor Ken:Good. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I'm going to do a series of questions with you. And as I said in the intro, it's not to attack anybody or a movement, it's to understand where God has brought you from and where God's taking you. So a question I have for you is, how did you first become involved in the Oneness movement?

04:03Justin:So I was raised in Oneness Pentecostalism by my parents. So that was the only church I had ever attended from when I was born up until my mid 20s, mid to early 20s actually. So not just having been raised around it, but then helped plant a church in it.

04:24Pastor Ken:Oh, I didn't know that.

04:25Justin:Yeah, helped plant a church down in Columbus, Ohio. We were there for about six and a half years. So it was pretty much the entirety of my upbringing, and my faith was in with the Oneness Pentecostal movement.

04:38Pastor Ken:Wow. So that's all you knew. So you really weren't attracted to it. It's just you grew up in it.

04:44Justin:110%, it was just the familiarity portion of it. And then obviously my wife, who also grew up in it, I married into it. Her family also grew up in Oneness Pentecostalism. And so we both were raised within those environments. We didn't know anything outside of it. I had some experiences outside of Oneness Pentecostalism. All my best friends were in, you know, Trinitarian Orthodox, Pentecostal circles, charismatic circles, but still Trinitarian Orthodox, salvation by faith, like all the normal things. But outside of those circles, all my church experience, faith experience was within Oneness Pentecostalism.

05:19Pastor Ken:Got you. So because you grew up in it, that's the truth that you clung to. That's all you knew.

05:27Justin:110%. And then for a long while it was like defending it to the nines, you know, with every fiber of my being, because you're raised to believe this is the truth.

05:39Pastor Ken:Yeah, I used to debate Oneness. I went to Bible college in the south, in Missouri, and there's a bunch of Oneness down there. And actually the Assemblies of God, where I grew up, the Oneness group split off from the Assemblies years and years and years ago, in the 1940s. So we were one, and then they kind of added to salvation, and we'll get into that. But I'm very familiar with what you came out of. Studied it in college a lot. But I had debates with people in the south.

06:17Justin:And what's interesting with the Oneness stuff is that they didn't really split off. They got kicked out.

06:21Pastor Ken:They got kicked out because of the Jesus-name baptism situation.

06:27Justin:Yeah, there's actually a really great book, Christianity Without the Cross by Thomas Fudge. It really dives into the history and how all that came to be.

06:36Pastor Ken:Good. So as a pastor in that movement, I was thinking, what were you teaching, and were you convinced at the time that it was absolute truth?

06:51Justin:Depends on which era. I was a youth pastor in that movement. Depends on which era you're asking about. When I first kind of took the reins for the youth ministry at the church I was at, absolutely, I was all in, and it was all the stereotypical Oneness doctrines. So denial of the Trinity. Salvation by faith was a no-go. They have three-step salvation based off of Acts 2:38. Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which they always tack on "with the evidence of speaking in tongues." And so I was teaching all that, believing all that. All my Trinitarian friends, I was defending it to them, you know, as to why this was true and what they believed was not.

07:36Pastor Ken:So you did have Trinitarian friends.

07:39Justin:Oh, 110%. I always joke I was like the most unreliable Oneness Pentecostal on planet Earth. I started playing like all the statewide drummer stuff. And so I started playing some statewide events. I think I played like one or two camps, and was in talks for playing some of their other events or whatever else. And then word got out that I was on worship teams and stuff at Trinitarian churches. And then all of a sudden the calls stopped, the texts stopped, the invitations stopped. I got blacklisted. And so, which, that's fine. And so it's interesting though, the way that all works out. Teaching it, again, depending on the era we're talking about: when I first was a youth pastor, I was all in on it. On the back end of it, I was still teaching it more so, I think, to probably convince myself than anything, because I had so many questions and so many doubts, questions that couldn't be answered, that no one could give me a straight answer for. At one point, this is when I was a teenager, but I was questioning salvation by faith because I had read Ephesians. I was literally just reading the Pauline epistles, and I was told I had a spirit of doubt and that I need to stop hanging out with my Trinitarian friends. That was the answer I got. And so it was one of those things of like, I don't think that's it.

08:56Pastor Ken:It's like Catholicism, when you go to the priest and ask them questions: stop reading the Bible. I'll give you your answers, don't read them.

09:07Justin:Yeah, essentially. And what's interesting is, it was in the movement, you know, they encourage you to read the Scripture. But then when you do and you have the questions, then you get almost demeaned for having done the very thing they asked you to do. And so, I don't know, it's a very interesting culture to be around and grow up in.

09:23Pastor Ken:Yeah. So looking back then, what was your life like, spiritually speaking? Tell me about that.

09:33Justin:You know, it's kind of a mixed bag. On one hand, I genuinely... I was just talking to one of my buddies, shout out Devin Mitchum, Resting Place Church, go check him out in Augusta, Georgia. He grew up in the Oneness movement as well. And we were on the phone today and we were talking about this. It's a mixed bag. There's portions of my upbringing I'm very thankful for. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit February 14th, 2010. Of course, then I was like, I got the Holy Ghost, now I'm saved. But I look back at those memories fondly. There's a lot that happened growing up that I absolutely credit for the fact that I'm still walking with the Lord today. One of the things you and I have talked about before is, I have hands down the best parents on planet Earth. They raised me in a movement I now disagree with, but I have vivid memories of growing up in a home where my father prayed for me out loud. I heard my name on his lips. I heard my name on my mom's lips, praying for me, faithfully showing up to church. Some of the altar call experiences that I had — a lot of positive memories. The flip side of that was, and I don't know if I can really credit this to the Oneness movement because I know pastors still struggle with this, but as a youth pastor, having to teach often, every week or not, I realized I didn't have any sort of devotional life at all. I cracked the Bible open, it was because I was sermon hunting. And so spiritually, that was painful. The part I will say that I could kind of credit to them: in that movement, salvation has no security. Now, I'm not like an eternal security guy, but the flip side of that is there's no security within that. Like I always joke, if you stub your toe and accidentally cuss or something and then the rapture happens, you're out of luck.

11:31Pastor Ken:You better hope Christ comes after a Sunday evening service.

11:35Justin:When you have that lustful thought and I got in a car accident and I died...

11:37Pastor Ken:The Assemblies of God did that too.

11:39Justin:Yeah. And so it's one of those wild things of like, unless Christ returns on a Sunday evening after you just, you know, ugly cried all over the altar, you're up the creek. And so it's hilarious. It's hilarious now, not then. But that part, spiritually, was really tough, because salvation didn't depend on Jesus' finished work. It depended on you and your behavior. Were you doing well this week versus were you doing well last weekend? And so that got really annoying, really difficult, because you're constantly just worried: am I going to make heaven? Am I going to make heaven? Am I going to make heaven?

12:18Pastor Ken:I don't know how many times I went to the altar call to get saved when I was a kid, when the prophecy teachers came.

12:25Justin:Oh dude, for sure. Every freaking Sunday I got saved, 100%, because I was so afraid.

12:32Pastor Ken:Saved, resaved, sanctified, baptized in the Holy Ghost. Yeah, every time. So in that experience though, did you have peace, or was it constant pressure?

12:44Justin:Oh yeah. Constant pressure. Constant pressure.

12:46Pastor Ken:I agree with you. Yeah, I had that as well. And I didn't come out of the Oneness. But I mean, they're pretty parallel.

12:55Justin:Yeah, there's a lot of similarities because of the split off. Culturally, I still have a lot of friends within the AG and that movement, and again, love them, respect them, have, you know, disagreements with them.

13:06Pastor Ken:I do too. End of the day, I think they're great.

13:09Justin:But there is a lot of the culture similarities because of the shared history.

13:14Pastor Ken:Yeah, I agree. So I want to kind of break down what Oneness is with you, for people who will listen to this. For someone who's never heard of Oneness Pentecostalism, how would you explain what they believe?

13:32Justin:Okay, we'll start with salvation, since that for me is usually the straw that broke the camel's back when I was leaving. They do not believe in salvation by faith. So within Orthodox Christianity, Protestantism, a thousand years of church history, we would confess that in Romans 10, it talks about those who confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead, that they are saved. Paul there is quoting, later in Romans 10 verse 13, that all those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. He's actually quoting the same scripture Peter preaches in Acts chapter 2, I believe it's verse 21, where he also quotes the prophet Joel from Joel chapter 2. So there's an agreement between Peter and Paul. At the heart of their salvation doctrine — and they won't say this out loud, so I'll say it for them — at the heart of their salvation doctrine is that Peter and Paul disagree. Because they'll quote Acts 2:38, which is what they believe is salvation. Peter said unto them, repent — that's step number one — and be baptized — that's step number two. This is important: in Jesus' name. If you've been baptized according to Matthew 28:19, to baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they would say you need to be re-baptized. So repent, and be baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, or the Holy Spirit, depending on if you're, you know, NIV or KJV. And they would say that means speaking in tongues. And so now, within that Holy Ghost thing that we were just talking about — and they won't say it, but culturally this is what it is within the movement — they do not see the Holy Ghost as a person. The way they describe it, and you can even see this in their songs: do you got it? I got it. They refer to him as an "it," because it is an experience, not a person. The secondary thing with Oneness Pentecostalism, hence the Oneness part: they deny the Trinity. They're kind of hard to pin down, because they're like 80% modalist, part Arianist, kind of monarchianism. They're kind of a conglomerate of two or three different second, third, fourth century heresies. And so they're kind of hard to pin down in that sense. But at the end of the day, if I'm just making a blanket statement — of course, I'm sure some Oneness person is going to see this and be angry that I said this — but they're modalists. They deny the Trinity. They think that God the Father then became the Son, and then when Jesus ascended, came as the Holy Spirit. Whereas within Orthodox Christianity, we would confess a triune God: that is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Going to the Athanasian Creed, this idea of neither confounding their persons nor dividing their essence, and leaning into this idea of the mystery of the Trinity. So they would deny the Trinity. Then there's other markers — you can get into the holiness stuff, where, like, my wife didn't cut her hair or wear pants or makeup or earrings. Now she's like tatted up in earrings, you know, real Jezebel spirit on her. We'll pray for her. I anoint her with oil every single night on the head while she's sleeping. I pray and sing songs of the Spirit over her that God would bring her back. But joking aside — this is completely off topic, but it's hilarious — the long jean skirts are in for girls right now. I don't understand it. And she started wearing them again, and I told her, I was like, you have to stop. We're not going backwards. This is re-traumatizing me right now. She wore one on Sunday and I was like, you look like a backslidden Oneness person, because she had cut-offs, her shoulders showing, tats.

17:02Pastor Ken:You can't do that.

17:03Justin:No, you're living in two worlds, hon. So yeah, sorry — back on topic. That's the two distinctions: the salvation doctrine, and then the denial of the Trinity and their view of the Godhead. Those are the two big ones. Obviously you can get into the holiness movement stuff and whatever else, but that's the two.

17:20Pastor Ken:Really, it's a works-based salvation, if you look at it.

17:25Justin:They would deny that, but yes. Because they wouldn't say that baptism or receiving of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues — they would not say that is a work. They would say that is obedience.

17:41Pastor Ken:Right, but if you don't get baptized in Jesus' name, you're going to hell.

17:43Justin:Correct.

17:44Pastor Ken:So it is dependent. So it is a person doing the thing. That's right. Exactly. So that kind of answered my second question, which was, why is baptism such a central issue in that movement?

17:54Justin:It's because baptism is essential to salvation. So they are a baptismal regeneration movement. But then also, it's not just baptismal regeneration, because you have that within other movements — Church of Christ, for example, they stand in the baptismal regeneration crowd — but then it's a layer deeper: within the mode of baptism, it can't be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It has to be in Jesus' name.

18:19Pastor Ken:I had a lady in my second church I was pastoring, in Coldwater, who went to a Oneness church. She started visiting our church, fell in love with it, and then we were having a baptismal service, and she said, do you baptize in Jesus' name only? And I said, no, we're Trinitarian. And I explained it to her, because she was so fraught with fear that she was going to go to hell. And I proved to her in Scripture that's not true. And that's the fear that they put upon people. And, you know, she was delivered from that, started attending our church, thank God. But the fear that I saw — I'll never forget it. The anguish, the fear, the anxiety, just the dread, knowing that she could burn for not doing it the right way.

19:09Justin:Correct.

19:11Pastor Ken:It's really sad.

19:12Justin:110%. Really sad. It takes this idea of salvation... This is why they would say they believe in salvation by grace through faith, because they don't want to deny Ephesians. They don't want to deny Scripture. But in practice, they don't actually believe that. I remember as a high schooler, asking questions regarding Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8, and getting shot down with the "you have a spirit of doubt, stop hanging out with your Trinitarian friends" — which is terrible to say. I look back at it now, it breaks my heart. I avoided all of the Pauline epistles for my entire high school career, starting basically my sophomore year until well after I graduated. I avoided the book of Ephesians because it caused too many questions that I knew I couldn't answer. So I avoided the book of Ephesians and almost all the Pauline epistles, because — First Corinthians 12 through 14, goodness gracious, that one sent me for a loop. And so you end up just avoiding them, because you're like, these are going to cause questions that I know for a fact I'm going to get in trouble for asking, so I'm just going to avoid it.

20:14Pastor Ken:Yeah, wow. How did that make you feel?

20:17Justin:Oh, terrible at the time.

20:21Pastor Ken:How old were you then?

20:23Justin:Probably 15 or 16.

20:28Pastor Ken:All the way to what, 18? High school you're talking about.

20:31Justin:Yeah. So I graduated when I was 18. So between 15 or 16, I got heavily involved in all things ministry with a Trinitarian church, ironically, when I was 15 years old. And so I started studying Scripture, because they were having me preach on a bi-weekly basis at one point.

20:49Pastor Ken:Your dad was okay with that? How did you get away with that?

20:55Justin:Some of it was, at points he was okay with it, and — I want to be careful not to dog on my dad. He's, again, an amazing man. Super glad he raised me. Fantastic father, fantastic husband, great Christian. Going to see him in heaven. All those things are true. With that said, there were discussions in high school around him not approving of the fact that I was preaching at this church. He simultaneously still showed up to the services and would listen and support me in that. So it was, again, this dual nature of: obviously he doesn't agree with their doctrine, but because I never preached anything that he disagreed with, he was okay with it.

21:39Pastor Ken:And are they still in the Oneness church?

21:41Justin:Correct. Yes, sir.

21:42Pastor Ken:Yeah, wow. So your whole family's still Oneness?

21:44Justin:On my side, it's my dad, a couple of my aunts and uncles, cousins. My grandma, my dad's mom, is actually Baptist. And then Katelyn's side, my wife's side — the whole family is in this movement.

22:06Pastor Ken:So I want to get to the turning point in your life. Going back, what first caused you to question the belief structure in the church?

22:16Justin:The questioning started in high school, and it was because I had friends that were Trinitarian, and I was just standing my ground, you know, hold the line. I was a martyr in my mind. I was going to convert them. And so I remember going to my friends' youth group and stuff that I preached at, and I would have all the discussions in the world about it. The turning point for me, where I started questioning it, was when I started reading the Pauline epistles. You can't really ignore Ephesians 2:8-10 — pretty blunt: saved by faith, not by works, so no one can boast. First Corinthians 12 to 14: will all speak in tongues? Obviously the rhetorical answer to all this is no. And so it's like, how do we reconcile this? But then I was shot down in regard to questioning it. And — this is hilarious — you can't get away from Trinitarian language in the Pauline epistles, primarily in the greetings and in the benedictions. You can't get away from Trinitarian language. It's there. And so, because I'm reading — I'm hungry for the word of God, which, as a former youth pastor, this still really bothers me a lot — I'm a teenager, I'm hungry for the word of God, I'm reading it, I'm all in on the Pauline epistles. And I ended a prayer on a Sunday evening for the worship team — they had me pray us out before we went up to the stage — and I said, "in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, Amen." And I got reprimanded for using that phrasing, because I'd been hanging out with my Trinitarian friends too much. What they didn't know is, no — I'd been reading the Bible. I look back at that now, and I was a youth pastor for 10 years — it still bugs me, because you're telling me there was a 16-year-old who was reading the Scripture so much that the verbiage of Scripture, the language of the Bible, had made its way into my own vocabulary, into my prayers, and that's an issue? That still bugs me a lot.

24:14Pastor Ken:What did your dad say about that? Was he okay with that?

24:19Justin:The being reprimanded? He never found out.

24:23Pastor Ken:Oh, it was from the church.

24:24Justin:Yeah, it was from the church leadership. Not my dad.

24:28Pastor Ken:Okay. So if you could — what's one scripture, one sermon, one conversation, maybe it was with your buddies in the Trinitarian belief system, that God used to begin to change your view on this?

24:47Justin:So — sorry if I'm getting ahead of the game here. One scripture was Romans 10, I believe it's verse 9. I've quoted it once already: anyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they will be saved. When my wife and I left — I had just found out that we were pregnant with... I'm sorry if I get choked up here. Anyways, we had just found out we were pregnant with Judah. We tried for a year to get pregnant. And it hit me like a ton of bricks: I am spiritually responsible for this child that is now in my wife's womb. And so I was just like, I need to know. I need to know what I believe. I need to know that I know that I know. And so, ironically, Ken, I went into the Scripture to revamp and reinforce my Oneness Apostolic beliefs. And so I started tearing into the Bible. Man, I was eating this thing up.

25:55Pastor Ken:You still have that Bible?

25:57Justin:I should have brought it tonight. I still have that Bible sitting at home. You can actually see my notes as I was progressively leaving. But Romans 10:9 — when I got to that scripture, a light switch turned on, because it made me question: do I believe the Scripture, or do I believe how I've been raised? I had a friend of mine — he was my pastor down in Oklahoma, who also was born and raised and pastored in the Oneness movement. He was also on his way out, and such a godsend that he ended up attending one more Pentecostal church before he left. That's where him and I met. And him and I met every Saturday at Roosevelt Coffee House in Columbus, Ohio — great spot if you haven't been there. We met there every Saturday morning, and I remember I met with him and I pulled out Romans 10:9. I was like, how do we make sense of this with the way we believe, with the way we were raised? How do we reconcile this with how we believe? And he said, "Justin, we don't." He's like, you are at a point where you need to decide: are you going to believe what the Scripture teaches, believe the Scriptures as they're written, or are you going to believe how we were raised? And then the questions just started pouring out. What about this? What about this? What about this? Little did I know, he had already gone through all this.

27:09Pastor Ken:How old were you at this time, at the coffee house?

27:12Justin:23 or 24.

27:18Pastor Ken:Okay. But you're still in it.

27:22Justin:Still in. I was youth pastoring at this point. That conversation happened at the beginning of summer. At this point, what I did not want to do was come home to my wife all riled up: baby, we're leaving! So what I did — wild to think, she actually did not own her own Bible at this point. She's a youth pastor's wife, leading worship and all that stuff. But again, we don't read the word. And so I bought her a Bible, an ESV journaling Bible, and I said, hey, would you want to do the New Testament in 90 days with me? She said absolutely. So we went through the New Testament, the whole time me praying, Lord, just show her what you showed me. Lord, show her what you showed me. And when she got to Romans 10 verse 9, she asks, hey Justin, what do you think about what we read today? I was like, well, what do you think about what we read today? She goes, I just don't know how we reconcile what we believe with what this says. Like, how do we make sense of this? To which I used the same reply Pastor Jordan said to me, which is: we don't. And then from there it was a conversation of, hey, here's what I've been learning. I really don't think I believe anything we've been raised to believe. And so because of that — that happened at the beginning of August, and within like two weeks, I turned in my resignation as the youth pastor of the church and told him we'd go through the end of the year. We ended up being done at the end of October. They'd found someone to replace us. And so we did that, and then we left the church about a month or two after that.

28:53Pastor Ken:Did you tell your dad before that?

28:56Justin:Yes. So we ended up moving back to west Michigan very briefly before I moved to Oklahoma and went and worked at a non-Oneness Apostolic church there, which is how that conversation was initiated — because he wanted to know what church we were working at, and found out it wasn't a Oneness Apostolic church. And so you obviously start asking all the questions: well, how do they baptize? What do they believe about salvation? What do they believe about the Trinity? All the questions. And that was when that conversation initially happened.

29:26Pastor Ken:So with your parents. It's exciting and yet terrifying, right?

29:34Justin:Yeah. Mostly terrifying at the time, for sure. Because, I mean, my network is wrapped up — network meaning the churches I know within that, outside of my Trinitarian friends. But of course my Trinitarian friends, by the way, we've all dispersed. My best friend, who was the pastor's kid at the time that I grew up with, he's literally in Manchester, UK, still is. So he's not even in the same country. And so we've all dispersed. So I have no idea what the heck I'm going to do. I went and worked at a church where I didn't know anybody. But you lose that. Obviously there's going to be the family tension behind it. And, of course, inside you're like, am I doing the right thing? And then you have all the fear that's wrapped up in the salvation thing, because no salvation is really secure. So you're like, oh God, am I losing my salvation by believing this? And now I have a kid in the mix. So am I actually leading my kid, my wife, to hell? All these questions are rolling through. And so you end up just turning back to Scripture, again and again and again. I think I read the Bible cover to cover about four or five different times. I'm not saying this to my own honor — it was straight up out of fear. I think I read the entire Bible four or five times that year, because it was just like, I want to eat this thing. Get as much of the Scripture in me as I possibly can, because I need to know that I believe this — for what I'm about to put myself through, my wife through, our kid through.

30:54Pastor Ken:Yeah. So let's go there. What did it cost you?

30:57Justin:I mean, there was some family tension for a while, which the Holy Spirit has been so good about relieving, and bringing reconciliation. I've said before and I'll say again: the resurrection still works past just Easter Sunday. It's so powerful, the reconciliation.

31:14Pastor Ken:Because some families — you tell me if I'm wrong — but people who leave the Oneness, they just don't communicate with them. They never talk.

31:21Justin:That is correct. Katelyn and I's family is very gracious, so that just flat out hasn't happened.

31:31Pastor Ken:Good.

31:32Justin:And I'm thankful for that. Very thankful for that.

31:33Pastor Ken:Sure. So your kids have a grandpa and a grandma.

31:37Justin:Correct. Yeah. And one of the main things — leaving, I met with a guy who had already left, and I was like, man, I don't know. Because of course I'm weighing the options here. I'm looking at the risk-to-reward ratio. And one of the guys I'd met with who had already left — he knew, sorry, she was still pregnant, we were about to have Judah — he's like, well, you can either make the decision and deal with the pain, or you can go ahead and pass it on to your son, and he can make the decision and deal with the pain. And I decided, I was like, well, I'm not going to put my son through this. I'll happily stand in the gap.

32:16Pastor Ken:Wow. So it cost you friends. Obviously it didn't cost you your family. Now, how's Christmas? Do you guys ever talk theology?

32:22Justin:No.

32:23Pastor Ken:So you leave all the discussion of your belief systems off the table. You just do holidays and vacations together, and they're just mom and dad.

32:32Justin:Correct. Yes.

32:33Pastor Ken:Was it like that the first time?

32:36Justin:100%, yeah. Because, you have to remember, we left in February. So then you just spend Easter dinner, and Father's Day and Mother's Day, and all the big ones — Christmas and Thanksgiving and all the things. I mean, it's had its challenges, but we try to make the holiday about coming together as family. And it's not that I'm unwilling to discuss theology. It's been brought up a couple times — not over holidays. It's like sitting down like, hey guys, who'd you vote for? Things you don't talk about over the Thanksgiving table.

33:10Pastor Ken:Exactly.

33:12Justin:So we just don't really bring it up as much. Not that I'm unwilling to talk about it. From discussions I have had with a few of the family members, they know where I stand. If they have questions, I'm more than happy to talk about the Scripture. Simultaneously — I would say within that movement, in their heart of hearts, they know that the doctrine doesn't hold water.

33:35Pastor Ken:So your kids are getting a little older now. They probably notice that grandma and grandpa dress different.

33:39Justin:I don't know that they have, not yet. You know, my wife is still wearing long jean skirts right now, so... I don't know, I'm just kidding.

33:48Pastor Ken:Anyway, she's cut her hair.

33:49Justin:She did cut her hair. She's got tats. Grandma has long hair, right? In the big Holy Ghost beehive buns, that's what you call them.

33:57Pastor Ken:Yes. We'd have shot-your-hair-down Sundays.

33:59Justin:100%, yeah. They always say the higher the hair, the closer to heaven. Which I always laughed at, because I was just like, have you read the story about the Tower of Babel and how that turned out for them? I don't think you want that.

34:11Pastor Ken:You know, that's a bridge that you're going to have to cross when they do start asking questions.

34:21Justin:Oh, 100%, yeah. And that's one of those things — I mean, I would encourage you to do this next time you're around my kids: walk up to them and ask what the Trinity is. They can tell you: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who's Jesus? He's the Son of God. They know. I'm catechizing my children.

34:39Pastor Ken:Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's great. Did you ever wonder if leaving meant losing everything, before you pulled the trigger?

34:53Justin:I guess my biggest worry was family, yeah. And so when that — I mean, it took a hit. I'd be lying if I said it didn't. But when that took a hit and then still rebounded, that was encouraging. But that was my biggest worry.

35:06Pastor Ken:How long was the hit?

35:08Justin:Tension-wise, for a few years. There was an initial hit — arguments, stuff like that. But I was adamant. I'm like, this is, to me, stupid and nonsensical, in regard to losing my family over this. And so I was adamant, even after I'd been hurt or whatever else — you know what, take it on the chin, move on, dude. I would call them the next day, because I was adamant: if there's anything I'm going to lose family over, this ain't going to be it.

35:44Pastor Ken:Right. That's awesome. You made that determination.

35:47Justin:110%. It was one of those things that, like, it's the most Christlike thing that I can do.

35:52Pastor Ken:That's awesome. I love the scriptures you pointed out — Second Corinthians 13. I don't know if you pointed out First John, or John 1, John 17, Matthew 3. Those are all powerful scriptures that are impossible to ignore.

36:06Justin:Yeah. I mean, they have their hermeneutical hopscotch. They are doing it. But yes, they do.

36:11Pastor Ken:So I want to skip down, because you kind of covered a lot of that — life after leaving. What has changed the most in your walk with Christ?

36:27Justin:The biggest thing is, I don't have to avoid parts of the Bible. You can read all 66 books, and what it says is what it says. Obviously, like anybody else that reads Scripture — you know, I always laugh when people think they know and understand every single part of the Bible, they've got all the answers. I'm like, oh, you do? Cool. Glad to know that you've solved 2,000 years of arguing over this thing. But I don't have to avoid any of the 66 books of the Bible. Now, if we're all honest with ourselves, there are parts of the Bible we all avoid. First and Second Chronicles, it's a rough one. Leviticus — although I actually find Leviticus more interesting than First and Second Chronicles. But that's not what we're talking about. So yeah, that's been my biggest one: I don't have to avoid parts of the Scripture. And then also just the security within salvation. It's one of those things — they think that people who believe in salvation by grace are just able to go and sin, do whatever they want. I'm like, no, the opposite's actually true. Just because I think my wife would forgive me if I went and committed adultery or something, doesn't cause me to go do that thing. By the way, she wouldn't — I'm pretty sure she'd kill me. But that doesn't cause me to go do that thing. Her love for me, and her ability to forgive me and show me mercy and grace, does not then cause me to go do something that merits those mercies and forgiveness and grace.

37:51Pastor Ken:It causes me to want to love her more.

37:53Justin:Correct. And somehow they miss that within the idea of salvation by grace. And so yeah, that's been the two biggest: being able to read Scripture cover to cover and not have to worry about it, and then also just the security within my salvation. Hey, if I pop off or lose my temper or whatever else — it's not that it doesn't matter. I still need to repent. I still need to be penitent. But the other part of that is, I'm still in relationship with Christ. There hasn't been a breach.

38:29Pastor Ken:I think that's so true, because we just left the Assemblies last year, and it was a denomination that I was with for most of my life, you know, almost 30 years. And the grace that I have grown in, in the last several years, coming out of that — it was a long time for me to leave. It took like five years in the making, because I wanted to do it right. But in those five years, understanding grace, and pulling out of that religious dogma that all religions have — everybody has it — you find that grace and that peace like never before, and the security in Christ. It's truly amazing.

39:15Justin:Genuinely, yeah.

39:16Pastor Ken:It changes your life. It makes you better, actually.

39:19Justin:110%.

39:20Pastor Ken:It's incredible. So let me ask you this. Do you feel more freedom today? And what does that freedom look like for you?

39:30Justin:You know, I use the freedom just to do some good old-fashioned sinning. Things that weren't good in the church, you know, sinful things — like, I've got one single tattoo.

39:50Pastor Ken:OK, sorry, this is kind of off topic, but it does crack me up. What is it?

39:53Justin:So it's a match. It's from that scripture in Second Timothy where Paul says to fan into flame the gift of God that was given to you. I have that as a reminder. But — funny thing — they always say, well, you can't have tattoos because Leviticus says. They also didn't allow beards? Come on. I've had a beard since I was like 17 or 18. And so it's funny to me, because the scripture right before — or right after, I forget — that says, you know, no tattoos, Leviticus also says do not trim the edges of your beard. So I used to just throw that in group texts all the time for that purpose.

40:31Pastor Ken:Yeah, I don't know how they get that. Because Jesus had a beard. All the priests had beards, long ones. It wasn't like they were clean-shaven back then.

40:38Justin:Right. According to them, they were.

40:40Pastor Ken:So, Jesus saves and Jesus shaves. Okay, anyways. Stupid joke.

40:43Justin:So yeah, as far as freedoms and stuff go — I hate to beat a dead horse, but I genuinely feel freedom in the two biggest ones: just Scripture, and then this idea that I'm secure within my salvation. Not that I don't think that I can't lose it — I'm not an eternal security guy — but if I stub my toe in the middle of the night and drop an F-bomb or something — sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on this podcast, not trying to get you cancelled or in trouble...

41:16Pastor Ken:I don't need any emails, you know. Okay, direct your complaints to Pastor Whoever-that-is.

41:25Justin:And if that happens, I'm not worried, like, oh, I'm not saved now. No, I'm still very much saved. The Lord still very much loves me. Should I repent? Should I do the right thing? For sure.

41:33Pastor Ken:That's where you grow in grace. I mean, that's where the freedom comes in — that we don't choose to sin, but if you get in the flesh a little bit, God's grace covers you. Before that, it was like, you're going to burn in hell. Shame on you for thinking that. I mean, when I grew up, I couldn't even go bowling. It was a sin. No bowling. Oh, my grandmother tore into me when I took Rachel on a first date. We went to the movies. Movies! That's the devil's playground. I'm like, it's a movie.

42:00Justin:Yeah. My wife and I were just talking about this earlier this week. We were watching a movie — there was like an old one, I forget what movie it was, to be honest. It may have been White Chicks. But anyways, we were watching, and she's like, oh yeah, I went and saw this in theaters with my dad, but I wasn't supposed to. And it was a big thing. I was like, that's so dumb.

42:21Pastor Ken:It was so dumb. That is so utterly stupid.

42:23Justin:It really is.

42:27Pastor Ken:Have you been able to help others leave unhealthy systems since you've come out of this?

42:34Justin:Yeah. So I've had several conversations. I've had several conversations that have helped people either leave, or get darned close and then realize the cost, and then realize, like, no, I actually don't want to do this. Because for them — they know, like, yeah, this will actually cost me my family. For some of them, and it's just really sad, it'll cost them their job. It'll cost them their network, because they work within it. And so it's one of those things — it's even more of a cost than what I had. Because when I say part-time youth pastor: I had a housing allowance that was very small, and so, financially speaking, it wasn't even making a dent in our budget. That wasn't even something that crossed my mind. But some of these dudes — it's literally their salary that they're giving up. And so then it's not just a spiritual thing, it's a financial thing. How am I going to put food in my kids' mouths?

43:24Pastor Ken:That's tough. What would you say to someone listening to our podcast who's beginning to question — beyond, you know, a denomination here — they're just beginning to question their belief structure? What would you tell that individual?

43:40Justin:The biggest thing right now, because it is a huge thing on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and all the things: stay the heck away from these stupid freaking deconstruction podcasts. Deconstruction is an act of Satan. The idea of deconstruction is not a Christian idea. It is a postmodern idea — and, small amount of rant: you cannot be a postmodernist and be a Christian. Postmodernism denies any sort of transcendent truths, and so immediately Christianity is out the boat. Postmodern philosopher Michel Foucault was the one who said — obviously I'm paraphrasing here, for anyone who has to fight in the comments; they don't even get comments — but Michel Foucault said that any confession of Christian doctrine is nothing more than a pillar of pastoral power, which is a power play. And so stay the heck away from deconstruction podcasts.

44:34Pastor Ken:They're popular right now.

44:36Justin:Yes. Stop baptizing the word deconstruction. "Well, it's okay to deconstruct if you reconstruct." I've yet to meet a single person that deconstructed that then reconstructed, because the word is attached to some sort of worldview. So stay the heck away from deconstruction podcasts. Secondly, in a more calm manner: let the Scripture lead you where the Scripture is going to lead you. It says what it says. Stop trying to avoid different parts of the Bible because it disagrees with how you believe. Third thing is, put some guardrails up to how you believe. You can't also get into — because this is postmodern-influenced — you can't get into, "well, you know, this is just what God is saying to me." No, he's not. God can't — the Bible can't mean what it never meant. And so we always tack that onto the Holy Spirit: well, the Holy Spirit's just speaking to me right now, and he's just saying this. I'm like, no. By every definition, he's not saying that. He inspired the word of God. Why are we now pitting the Holy Spirit against the very word he inspired? That doesn't work. So, guardrails. For me it's always: number one, what does the Scripture say? Number two, how has the Scripture historically been interpreted? Going to the church fathers, going to the patristics, going to the reformers. How has this Scripture, over 2,000 years of Christian thinkers, how has this been historically interpreted? There's going to be some nuances there and disagreements, but you can usually see an overarching answer. And if you came up with some sort of newfangled interpretation — news flash, it's probably wrong, and you're probably a heretic.

46:09Pastor Ken:Exactly.

46:10Justin:You're probably dabbling in some sort of first or second century heresy. Put up those guardrails. Then ask, what does my local church believe? And then go from there. Notice how none of that is like, well, what do I believe?

46:20Pastor Ken:What I believe doesn't matter.

46:21Justin:It doesn't matter. It does not matter.

46:23Pastor Ken:That's why I like you, for what you just said.

46:27Justin:Oh well, I appreciate it.

46:28Pastor Ken:I mean, that's what we believe in our church. I did a podcast on guardrails. You have to have guardrails in your life — not just in relationships, but with the Word of God as well. The Word of God is the guardrail. The Word of God is our measuring stick, and all things that come to us are measured against the Word of God. It's powerful. It's what Paul says in Romans: let God be true and every man a liar.

46:53Justin:Amen to that.

46:57Pastor Ken:If someone from, let's just say, your former church is listening today, what would you say? What would you want them to hear from your heart?

47:06Justin:I still love you guys. Still praying for you guys. Frankly — which will so ruffle some feathers in some of my current circles — I don't believe that Oneness Pentecostals are condemned to hell, because... I just don't believe that. I've seen way too many people within the movement that genuinely love the Lord, that really love the word of God. Do they have misunderstandings, and do I have deep disagreements with them theologically? Absolutely. But I also posit that when Christ returns, he's correcting all of our theology, mine included. And so I would start there. Simultaneously, no one has the corner market on theology. We can get close to it, but no one really has it. Do I think there's better ways of interpreting Scripture? Yes. Do I think that there's, you know, in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity? Do I believe there's essentials? Absolutely. But when Christ returns, he's correcting all of our theology. So let them know: number one, again, love you guys. Still more than willing to talk, whatever else, have any discussions surrounding theology. I would also ask them to take a good long look at not just what they believe, but also how the culture operates within the Oneness Pentecostal movement, and ask themselves if they really believe that it's Christlike to operate the way that they're operating. Which, you know, for example — condemning 2,000 years of Christians to hell by what they believe. Ask hard questions. As far as, like: why am I willing to read somebody like C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, or G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy — why am I willing to read these when I believe, per my own doctrine, that all these men are in hell? Or, just to make it more recent: how am I able to celebrate the life and effect of Charlie Kirk after his assassination when I believe that he is currently burning in hell, per my own doctrine? How do we reconcile those two things? I'm not asking them to do anything that's not just objectively looking at what they believe and putting it up to the real world. Because when you start to do that, and you start to openly and honestly look at those questions, what that is, is you're putting everything up against the word of God. What does the word of God actually say? I know it's been preached, I know it's been yelled at General Conference and Youth Congress and holiday youth conventions and midwinters and all the different events...

49:19Pastor Ken:So they really believe — like the Catholics believe — that they're the only one true church, and everybody else...

49:26Justin:Correct. Some of them are more honest than others. Because some people, when you press them on this, are like, well, I just think we're going to be surprised when we get to heaven how many people we see there. I'm like, so you don't believe what you believe then? Just say that. I would almost rather, if you're going to believe it, double down on it. Believe what you believe. You know, there was a guy at their conference that said, if you don't speak in tongues, you're not going to go to heaven. And I'm like, well, at least you said the quiet part out loud. I would almost rather that, because then we're being intellectually honest and consistent. A lot of people in this movement, when you press them on it, they'll fold like a deck of cards.

49:55Pastor Ken:So what have you learned about God's grace? What's one word you could describe it with?

50:01Justin:Greater. More. Greater than, one, what I deserve. But two, it's far greater than what I had ever thought it was previously. Goes a lot further than I thought it would.

50:14Pastor Ken:Awesome. All right, this is the fun part, in closing.

50:16Justin:Oh, goodness.

50:17Pastor Ken:I call it the lightning round.

50:20Justin:Oh, God. It's the lightning round. Todd, did you install the buzzers in the chair?

50:27Pastor Todd:Yeah, no buzzers today.

50:29Justin:There is a Oneness Pentecostal somewhere, like, lightning round? Strike him down! They're praying that right now, in Jesus' name.

50:36Pastor Ken:All right, so here we go. One-word answers. Here we go. What verse means the most for you today?

50:42Justin:Colossians chapter 2, verse 14. He canceled the record of our debt that stood against us with all of its demands, and he set it aside by nailing it to the cross.

50:49Pastor Ken:Awesome. Biggest misconception people have about Christianity?

50:56Justin:Misconception... Christianity doesn't play well — it does not play well or mix well with other religions. We are not Christian Buddhists. We are Orthodox Christians.

51:08Pastor Ken:Got it. Good one. Book besides the Bible that has changed your life?

51:17Justin:I'm going to say The Common Rule by Justin Whitmel Earley. It's on spiritual disciplines. It's basically like the less complicated version of The Spirit of the Disciplines.

51:25Pastor Ken:Really? I've never read that.

51:26Justin:Fantastic book. He also has a sequel called Habits of the Household, where he takes the spiritual disciplines personal, but then takes them up a notch and puts them in the course of the home.

51:37Pastor Ken:I might have to borrow that from you.

51:39Justin:Brother, I'm telling you — putting that in as a parent resource in your church? Fantastic. We're about to do it at ours.

51:45Pastor Ken:Okay, I'll look at that. Favorite thing about being a pastor?

51:51Justin:People. I love being around the people. Obviously I love preaching, all that kind of stuff, but I'm a big-time extrovert, so I just love being around people.

51:58Pastor Ken:Me too. Coffee or tea?

51:59Justin:Coffee. Tea is dumb. There's a reason we threw that crap in the harbor. USA, USA, baby.

52:09Pastor Ken:Okay. What's one thing you wish every Christian understood?

52:14Justin:Oh, man. You are loved by God — and not for the fact that you did good today, or that you behaved well enough. You are loved by God because when he sees you, he doesn't see your sin, he sees his Son. You're hidden in Christ.

52:28Pastor Ken:Amen. Love that. Okay, closing question, Justin. If you had five minutes with someone — five minutes with someone who has devoted their entire life to religion, but really never experienced the grace of God — what would you say to that individual?

52:58Justin:Five minutes... There is more freedom. I don't want to say this to be argumentative, but I don't have a problem with religion in and of itself. James talks about having a pure religion. But religion in the sense of, I follow tradition over what I follow in Scripture, I follow tradition over having an actual intimate relationship with Christ — if that's the person I'm talking to, I would probably tell them: I'm not condemning their religion or their practice or their disciplines. I always say, in the religion-versus-relationship debate, that relationship will get you in, but religion is going to keep you in. It's the disciplines that will keep you in. So I'm not going to dog on their religion. What I am going to tell them, as far as legalism goes, is that legalism binds. It binds you, because it first tells you that you have to work — it's self-righteousness, you have to do it, you have to earn your salvation. But it's a work of the devil, because then, when you fail to do so — which you will — it comes in and shames you. You didn't meet the mark, you didn't do this. Whereas grace says: you're not going to meet the mark. In fact, all of us have fallen short of the glory of God. But we are not justified by our works. We're justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that's in Christ Jesus our Lord. That's what Romans tells us. And so I would tell them that while legalism binds, grace sets us free. Sets us free from the fear of having to earn this ourselves. It sets us free from "if I don't measure up" — grace just says, news flash, friend: you don't measure up, and you never will. And it invites us into following Jesus not out of fear so that we can please Him, but knowing, because of his Son, we are already seen as pleasing and acceptable unto God. That we're now responsible for just laying our lives down — not because we need to be saved, but because we're already saved. In the same way that I don't take Katelyn out on a date so that I can be married to her — I take her out on dates because I am married to her, and I kind of think she's cute. And so, that idea of legalism binding us and grace freeing us — I think that might be my number one message for them.

55:08Pastor Ken:Awesome, buddy. It's been real.

55:10Justin:Absolutely. It's Real Talk with PK — of course it's been real.

55:14Pastor Ken:Thank you for being here. I love you, buddy. So I want to thank Justin for sharing his story. Conversations like this, friends, aren't always easy, especially when it involves our past and family and friends. Our prayer isn't that people simply change denominations. I didn't do this podcast for that. I did it so that we would come to know Jesus in a real, personal way, through his word and through God's grace. If you're listening today and you are searching for truth, don't be afraid to ask questions. I encourage you to ask questions. God is never threatened by our questions or an honest heart seeking him. So I want to thank you again for joining us for Real Talk with PK, and I want to give a special thanks again to Justin, my friend — I love him dearly — for sharing his heart and his journey with us today. My prayer for you today is that this conversation has encouraged you. This is my prayer: that it encouraged you to seek God's truth through His Word, and draw you closer to Jesus Christ. Always remember that our faith should be built on Scripture alone, not simply tradition or what we've always been taught. It's through grace. If this episode encouraged you, be sure to share it with somebody who might need to hear it. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, so you don't miss any future episodes. Until next time, friends: keep your eyes on Jesus, keep growing in your faith, and keep it real. God bless you, and we'll see you real soon.