How to help someone grieving

00:09Pastor Ken:Today we're going to talk about You Don't Have to Grieve Alone on Real Talk with PK. All right, welcome back to Real Talk with PK. And we're going to talk where we talk about real life, real struggles, and the things that sometimes we just don't know how to talk about. And today we're going to talk about something that eventually touches every one of us, and that is grief. Losing someone you love changes you. And one of the difficult things about grief is that everybody around you eventually goes back to their normal life. The funeral ends, the flowers disappear, the phone stops ringing, the meals stop coming. Everybody else seems to move forward. But you're still learning how to live in a world where someone you love is no longer there. And sometimes people generally want help, but they don't know what to say, so they try to fix it. And they give you advice. They offer a cliche. They tell you that time heals everything. Or sometimes even people of faith say things like a God won't give you more than you can handle. You know they mean well, but when your heart is broken, those words don't always help. So today I want to have a real conversation about grief. Not how to get over it, and not how to pretend that everything is OK, but how do you walk through a loss without walking through it alone? And have someone with me today who understands that both professionally and personally. So I want to introduce to you Ann. Ann is my guest today. Welcome, Ann. Ann Kita. Kita is how you pronounce it. She is the executive director of New Hope Center for Grief and Support in Northville. Just to give a little bio of Ann for you, Ann has more than 25 years of experience in nonprofit work. Much of it is serving and advocating for people affected afflicted by crime. She also has a master's degree in counseling, although much of her career has centered on advocacy and peer support. And New Hope has been serving people dealing with grief and loss for 26 years. One thing that really caught my attention about New Hope is that their services are free and their programs are trained volunteer facilitators to help people discover something that I think is incredibly important. You don't have to grieve alone. And if that's you today, well, this podcast is right up your alley. So Ann, welcome to Real Talk with PK. I'm so glad you're here today.

03:07Ann Kita:Well, thank you for having me. I'm so appreciative just to have this opportunity to have this conversation. I think it's a needful one. It is.

03:15Pastor Ken:It's a lot of people grieve and they don't know how to heal, you know, heal and, and deal with it as well. So what's, what is New Hope? Tell our listeners what What is

03:25Ann Kita:New Hope about? So you said it so eloquently yourself, but Needless to say, it is a space for people to come and share their grief journey with somebody who has walked in similar shoes. So we're really proud that we are a peer-to-peer support model. It's not something that you're going to a clinician about. It's really about building community so they don't feel so

03:51Pastor Ken:isolated. Yeah, and we have a guest. You brought a guest with us. Would you introduce her for us

03:56Ann Kita:please? So honored to introduce. So this is Susan Arnould and she is incredible with her role as Director of Operation and Program Services. Nice. So she has. She's busy every day. Wow.

04:13Pastor Ken:Well, welcome, Susan. How are you? I'm good. Thanks. For having me. Yeah, beautiful day today, isn't it? Yeah, we're going to have a great, great time today. I think my first question is who are people who typically come through your doors?

04:29Ann Kita:Typically through our doors is anybody who identifies that they need some support in reference to grief. And we service any and all from children, teens, families and then individuals. And our peer support is really focused on spouse loss and parent loss, infant and child loss, in addition to some unique groups that we have is in reference to those that have lost loved ones and friends from substance use and suicide. And if I'm missing anything, Susan, I think that's, yeah. Basically all the relationships

05:11Pastor Ken:lost. OK. Is there a certain point in which the grieving process when, when people normally reach out what? What is that point where people say, you know what, I need help?

05:26Ann Kita:I think it's when they're actually ready. Some will reach out within weeks from the person who's passed, but others it might take a year or two or more time. And so there's no, there's no boundaries with that. We welcome any and all. Sometimes people will start a program and think they're not ready and then they'll return maybe a year later, so it's really on their own thought of when they're ready. Oh, that's really good.

05:55Pastor Ken:I like that. Why is that important when you're dealing with grief? Like it's not a ten step program to go through. So what's the why behind that?

06:08Ann Kita:The why behind that is because we want to support them and not put them in a box or make it a a pattern that they have to follow because everybody's walk is different and everybody's journey is different. And we want to embrace that and basically secure a really safe place for them. So if we're telling them what to do and how to do it, I don't think that's very welcoming. So they're really coming to us sharing their story with their peer-to-peer facilitator and that's an opportunity that they will share with others who have walked in similar shoes. So I think that's kind of the key element where it's not a one, two, step three like you mentioned program. It's really about building conversation and community and knowing that you're looking forward to coming back because those bonds are building in those ongoing support groups and we hold different types of things throughout the year. But I think the connection is what's so wonderful to understand that I'm not alone. And it's just an amazing journey to know that others who might have different losses in reference to different timelines, but different losses in meaning. Like I may have lost my mother four years ago and somebody who lost maybe just a month ago, but very similar experiences and it validates people. I know somebody in our church

07:33Pastor Ken:who lost his wife to cancer with four children, and he has, and that was I think two or three years ago, might have been four years ago, but just recently he's gone through difficulty of dealing. He never processed it, you know, he never went through the grief because he had four kids and he had to get on the life and, you know, get these kids going and school and he never took time to process it. And now it really affected his life. So I see the ramifications of that, that you need somebody to walk beside you. When you think you've whipped it, you know, you're you're through it. And then it just floods in like a a river, you know, and hit you what? What's your experience with grief? Have you have you experienced?

08:27Susan Arnould:That Susan. Yes, I am. So I came in New Hope just because I saw it on social media as a volunteer and my background is in counseling and early childhood, and I spent most of my career in early childhood teaching. But when I saw it when we moved to town, I was just like, this is interesting. This is like a hard space. It was just a surprising place, like peer-led grief support. My husband's a minister and a chaplain and we walked with people through it. But this was just a different take that it was so communal and that the nonprofit side of it that I was like, oh, this is interesting. So yes, I started as the volunteer coordinator started doing that, but it just really opened my eyes. And I can say personally, like I, I didn't come because of loss. And a lot of our facilitators come as participants and then they come and want to give back and walk the journey with others. And for me, it wasn't that. But I can say like I lost my dad, it'll be two years in November. And I can say that it's, I think it's changed my, it would be different if I wasn't part of New Hope. Like this whole journey and process, I was a stuffer and put it down and I'm not going to, I'm going to be strong. And you know, but it's like it gives you space to talk about him and it's OK to cry and all those things. It's definitely changed my experience. So I'm thankful for it because it is New Hope is a gift to many.

09:39Pastor Ken:So I'm just so thankful. That's wonderful. And what's your personal experience? There's something personal that you shared before coming on the podcast. And I want you to take time, however you feel comfortable talking about it with us. You experienced several significant losses within a relatively short period, so could you kind of take us

10:09Ann Kita:through that journey? Yeah. Thank you for asking. So it started back in 21 and I had an opportunity to move out of state and start a new job and my husband was going to follow, but it was myself and my daughter and my mother. So 3 generations of us ladies traveling down and we started that journey and a lot of a lot of transition was happening. But within about less than six months, my in laws, who I've been, I've known for over 40 years, suddenly got sick due to COVID and they passed away within six days of each other. So I was 12 hours away with my mother and my daughter and my husband was here in Michigan with our two older sons. So just navigating that was, was really hard. And many have lost many people from COVID too. So just, you know, and I'm being away from my spouse, that was very difficult. And so Needless to say, just keep walking through you, just keep doing right and be strong and take care of my daughter. And my mother was very close. That was like one of her best friends. So we were very fortunate that our parents were really, really close and so we dealt with that as best we could from afar. Still my husband living here, which definitely delayed him coming down to the state that I

11:48Pastor Ken:was at. Where were you? I was in South Carolina. OH. OK, I thought 12 hours, 13. 12 hours and beautiful state left

11:56Ann Kita:it there and so that delayed all of that. So we started at the end of 22, starting to figure out how this is going to be working for him to come down in the process of buying a home. And my mother was living with me at the time because she was kind of getting ready for like a like a assisted living, but definitely we could be roommates. And right now I'm very thankful I had this time with her. But one morning she had fallen and needed to go to the hospital and two weeks later she had passed. So it was very, very... Did she break a hip or something like that? She did not break a hip. She always had some trouble with COPD indifference, but it just, I don't know, it just the rehab just didn't wasn't working for her and she just got more weak. Yeah, needless to say. She never broke her hip or don't even break a bone. But so she had passed almost a year to the day of my in laws. So that was very that was probably one of the hardest things I've ever gone through because she was my best friend. She was my best friend. So talking about here, I'm in this new position, loved my work that I was doing nonprofit for victims and I just couldn't function anymore. I think from the loss of my in laws about a year prior and then my mother, but also 2 when I was working, I had lost three significant staff members within the organization I was working for. Through COVID. Not through COVID, no. Actually, one was killed by a car accident in October and that was late 22 or maybe that was no, that was October of 21. And then my in laws had passed away in 22 early 22. And then I had two staff members pass away Mother's Day weekend, one Friday and one Saturday. There was a lot, there was a lot of death and to the point of like what is happening? Like why am I even here? And my, my human resource director also lost her husband in June of 22. So then when it came, when I experienced the loss of my mother, I just couldn't function anymore. I needed to come home after the funeral. I looked at my husband, I'm like, I need to come home. So even my board, you know, I said, do you want a leave of absence? And I, I just felt the calling was I needed to be home. So I came back to Michigan and I would just, I love the nonprofit work. I've been in it for so long. I wanted something really, really special. And I was looking for work and New Hope came up and honestly, it was on Indeed, this cute little story, because I think that's just a divine intervention of some sort of, it was on Indeed. And I literally looked at it and thought, I'm going to pray about it and back the next day and it was off on Indeed. I was like what? OK, but I was, I'm like, I'll just go look at the website. I think I actually looked at the website prior to and I was just amazed about the type of programming, but how many volunteers that New Hope has. And with that, I reached out to our chairperson and then started the process to interview. And I'm very, very grateful that they've offered me this opportunity to lead. And I have an exceptional team. I could not. And I don't say that lightly. I don't say anything nice unless I truly, truly mean it. And I, I'm very blessed to have the staff that I have. And Susan is my right hand

15:58Pastor Ken:person. That's wonderful. Great. Geez, that's.

16:04Susan Arnould:A journey. That's that's a journey of it

16:07Pastor Ken:struggle and heartache and kind of sounds like Job in the Bible, you know, a. Little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. What's the difference about sitting with people who had experienced loss themselves? What's the difference? You went through loss, but what's the difference of sitting with somebody who has experienced it?

16:30Ann Kita:How do you do that? How do I do that to sit with somebody? I think it's well, I think the experience is is a beautiful experience if you allow yourself to be humble and open to your own emotion as well. So New Hope, a foundation programming piece is a eight week workshop and that's held twice a year. And we started this workshop in the fall and I chose to walk in through this workshop as Ann, not as executive director, but as Ann. And so we just completed halfway through week 4, right? And sitting with others who have experienced parent loss, it has been I, it's almost like there's no words, but we have to be able to ascribe it to the point where that day I didn't want to go that first Monday morning I'm like, I don't want to go to work. I'll go to work. I'll sit at my desk, but I know where I have to go that evening. And that speaker that evening, she had talked about how she was an 8 week. Drop out. And I thought, yeah, I kind of, you know, understand. I didn't. I wish I would have just went home for the evening. But I'm so glad I I stayed. And it is hard. It is hard feeling those emotions. I think it's also hard to hear others who have you know, who are missing and feeling the pain of loss. But just in four weeks time, how close we've become, it's incredible, as if we've known each other for almost ever. It's a really incredible experience.

18:21Susan Arnould:Yeah, I'd say it's what we've seen too. It's like it's this unique sacred space that happens in there where you're everything is just raw. But it is interesting to see like people come through Week 1 and they their faces are downcast, like the greeters are trying to welcome them warmly, but a lot of them don't want to be there. Because I was amazed, honestly. Like we'll have over 100 participants join that are complete strangers that are coming together and then to come together that way for eight weeks. Like to me, I'm not the person that's like, let's do group

18:48Pastor Ken:thing. How did how did you guys settle on 8 weeks it? Was just a model that they've

18:52Susan Arnould:followed. Yeah, it's just a model that's followed. But then seeing their faces change throughout the 8 weeks and they're hugging each other and contact information and I still meet with volunteers that it's like they still meet with their group and it could have been five years ago, but they'll still meet for dinners. The bond is just close. You know, it means a lot. And people can say they understand. And we still always try to say like everybody's loss is different. Even though we both lost a parent. We're not going to judge or compare it. But there is value in being with people that do understand a parent loss or a spouse loss or like you're a person that if it's a spouse loss at a certain age group, even where it's like you're raising children. So it groups for that too. So yeah, it's it's just

19:32Pastor Ken:powerful. And it's a hour setting.

19:35Ann Kita:How long is the session? So we start around 6:30, like about two hours. It's a nice program that where there's a specific speaker who's been through the program themselves. And some of these speakers have been doing this for years. One gentleman has been doing it for over 10 years. And for him to keep coming back and wanting to give back, it's just incredible. And all the facilitators, all the speakers. Have shared their story and there's been tears up there and it might have been three years, 10 years, but it's just incredible to see their courage and knowing that I can get there too, I think is very encouraging. A little hope because I'm the same way. I'm like, I don't want to talk, you know, I come from the counseling side. I'm the I'm the listener. I'm the listener. And so even that first or second week I'm like, I don't want to say anything. Yeah, I don't want to talk. Yeah.

20:34Pastor Ken:The. Roles have have turned. They have. Turned yeah and you got to put

20:38Ann Kita:yourself out there and our facilitators are incredible I they're just incredibly patient and.

20:46Susan Arnould:It is because it's a lot to walk through. We're always like, they're the superheroes because it's like you're you're going back into it each time you're leading group, you're trying to accommodate that for the participants too. But then you're also battling your own feelings of what that was like for you and stuff. So it's just a raw vulnerable, but so appreciated what they do for us to help so many people.

21:05Pastor Ken:That's incredible. I, I've, I've been a pastor for 30 years and we try to fix grieving people, you know, in ministry. And this is something I think that I really want to talk about because of my profession. I've done so many funerals for grieving families for many, many years. And I think sometimes we mean well, right? But we say the wrong things, right? We think we're helping. And you made an interesting statement. You said people want to fix in our interview process. So take me through talk, talk to me about that for a little bit. We are. What are some things I should say that people actually say to people who are grieving that don't work? You know what I mean?

22:02Ann Kita:Right. Or who have been through our programs. You know, I think generally speaking culturally, you know, nobody wants to hurt. And everybody, truly, I think we have a good society who wants to do, yeah, I agree, wrap our arms around people.

22:16Pastor Ken:We got a lot of bad, but I think overall we're good. I think when, yeah, well intended. It's definitely well intended, yeah, but in reference to what

22:25Ann Kita:people might say, sometimes I think they're just looking for something to fill space versus don't be afraid of the silence or simply just say I'm so sorry for your loss because I.

22:38Pastor Ken:Think that's key? The silent part. A lot of people feel insecure in the silence and it's OK, right?

22:49Ann Kita:It is OK, yeah. Because I think just personally, like I would rather have somebody just sit with me and be silent versus trying to fix it or tell me things to make myself feel better because it's, it's just not navigating to that to my heart. So that's where New Hope is that space where it's an opportunity not to tell somebody, but really even emphasize the word. I like, you know, I felt this way and this is what helped me, but that doesn't place it on the other person to do it. It might be, oh, I never thought of doing it that way. So maybe I would try that Like you get yourself thinking in your head based upon somebody else sharing their personal experience versus saying, well, I think you should do this and why don't you, you know, get out and exercise more. But what if you don't feel like exercising? Right, right. It might be something different so.

23:49Pastor Ken:A lot of people, I think isolate themselves, you know, going through grief, and I think that's the worst thing for an

23:56Susan Arnould:individual to. Do and they can feel like we go through like be shared, talk about them. Just the normal reactions to grief that affects you like socially, emotionally, mentally, physically, quickly because people will call on it you do feel like something is wrong with you, like you can't remember things or you're breaking down in the grocery store or whatever. It's like, no, these are all normal feelings. So even just being able to name the feelings and oh, this is normal. Like because as a society, honestly, I felt like we never talk about grief enough or create that space that can feel very uncomfortable. But being comfortable in that pain with people. So yeah, it is interesting and it's nice for them to be able to feel like they do belong in that sense that they can say this is normal and this is going to be hard, but I don't have to be

24:39Pastor Ken:alone in it. I really like that because I, I do believe that, you know, people don't know what to say. They're uncomfortable with the process of grieving and I think if they lost somebody in their past, maybe they don't want to go there because it's going to dredge up more things of what maybe they didn't say to their loved one before they passed or live with regret. You know, I try to tell people, you know, live every day and don't live with regret. If you were to take your last breath, I can honestly say I have no regrets. That's how I try to live. And my dad died suddenly. We were, I think he's been gone now 15 years. And my mom grieved for so long. And I told her, I said, you know, mom, it I don't know how long you're going to grieve because they were married over 50 years. And she would just weep and weep. And I said, it's OK. You don't have to be strong. You know, it could last a year, 2 years. I don't really know. You know, how do you take somebody that you've been together with for 50 years and then just remove them and then you go home at night and there's no one in the bed with you? 50 years. My wife went away on a trip couple of weeks ago. I was by myself for like 4 days and I'm like, wow, you know, now that my mom's passed, it's coming up on a year. You know, you, you're like, I really miss her. Like, you know, I'm not talking to anybody. I had my kids there. But you know, they're working and busy and, you know, it's kind of lonely. You know, my wife said, did you miss me? I said, yeah, I did. I missed our conversations. And, you know, but yeah, it's, I don't think people understand the hurt. It takes years, years to get over it.

26:41Ann Kita:If it ever. If it ever, yeah.

26:43Pastor Ken:Especially like if you lose a child, how do you get over that?

26:46Ann Kita:Right. And I think just with developmentally too, yeah, just to reference, you know, we do, you know, support children and we have a kids camp in the

26:56Pastor Ken:summer. That's.

26:57Ann Kita:Great. And so that's just an opportunity to kind of start reaching. Yeah, little ones, Yeah, teens to be able to process that because that's something I, I didn't have additional to that. I was 16 when I lost my brother. He was 21. And my first day at New Hope was a good one. Every day's been a great day after that. But with that day was our volunteer training for our kids camp. And I went to that, of course, on my first day. And I sat in my car afterwards. And I thought, if I only had had this so many years ago.

27:36Susan Arnould:Because that's the thing with grief, like you kind of said, like you might not deal with it for a long time, but what many people say is it will come up. However it's going to come. If you've not processed or tried to work through it, it will come a song. Plays on the radio, BAM, That

27:51Pastor Ken:emotion floods over you. Or you see somebody, you know, and it brings back memories. I mean, I've seen a few men that kind of reminded me of my father. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, yeah. Right. And so, yeah, I think some of the things that are best that we could say to people who have gone through grieving is, you know what? I'm here for you. You know, just I'm here and I love you. And I think those are great words to tell people that, you know what? I might not understand what you're going through, but I'm here for you. And I think that's important, don't you guys?

28:30Susan Arnould:Yeah. And I would say, and sometimes we're afraid to bring up the person or talk about them, but they're already thinking about them all the time. And sometimes you can feel like people are going to forget about them. So there's value even in just, you know, how you doing today. But like, if it's about that, you can ask about them and talk about them because they're already thinking about them. So it's like just invite that the culture and that helps them heal too.

28:50Ann Kita:I agree. And even to like have a opportunity to extend when it's an anniversary of some sort. So I had recently just for a friend and it was a one year on the loss of his father. And at first I'm like, should I or should I? I'm like, no. And please be like, yeah, I'm going to do this. And he extended a really nice, thank you, you know, and it was just good. But we have to kind of get past the point that it's we need to talk.

29:20Pastor Ken:About We do, we do. I agree. Because, you know, the thing that grips me, I think is when everybody moves on, right? And there's I think something from your experience that I think will resonate with a lot of people is after someone dies, there's often a tremendous support initially, like the first month, maybe the first two months, people call, they bring food, right? People check in on you and then a few months pass the call, slow down, the meals stop eventually, and then everyone goes back to their own life and you're left with nothing, silence. And I think the grieving person is still grieving hard and, and no one's there. And So what happens emotionally in your experience to people when that does happen, when when it all disappears and they go back quote normal, What is your

30:21Ann Kita:experience in that? Well, I think that normal is not normal for them. So I, it makes it even worse I feel because during that initial process, they're seeing people and people are reaching out or maybe they're invited out to lunch, you know, they kind of have that normal social piece. But like you said, everybody goes home and goes back to their normal routine. And I think that's even worse for the person because it's so it's so silencing for them. And New Hope has these ongoing groups and they're ongoing and you don't have to stick to one group. We offer a couple different groups. So if you really wanted to go 3 or 4 times a month, you can do that. Or if you just want to go once, it's really about that consistency that they're that door is always open for them. I think that's wonderful. So I think that's just an

31:12Pastor Ken:opportunity. We really believe that CrossPoint, that community is where it's at and New Hope sounds like a great community where people can come together with same needs and wants and to share, you know, and I think that's why community is so powerful. People that don't have community in their life. It's hard to get through life today. It's so hard when my father-in-law was passing away and he just passed and this was several years ago, but when he actually died, my wife was there and and she was upset and he was about to take his last breath and, and the doctor said, you know, living is the hard thing. It's dying. That's easy once you're gone, right? You got to live with the after fact of everything that's transpired in your life and up to that point. And I think it's so important that we get support. That's why I wanted to have you on. September was suicide awareness month for especially for men and suicide has gone up a lot in men. I myself know to the last month. One was a 16 year old boy that tried to hang himself and thank God he was unsuccessful. This was a friend of mine, another pastor friend of mine, it was his son. And he was gaming with his friend. And he's like, I'm going to, I'm going to end it all today. And he's like, no, you're not bro. So yeah, I'm done. And so the kids that he was gaming with, his mother was in the living room area. They overheard him and he said call 911. And so they called 911 and he got off the game and the police got there just in time. They had to break down the door because the dad wasn't home. And he just jumped off the chair and the cops picked him up out of that rope and cut it and got him down. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, a 16 year old. But it happens everyday that people have no hope. They think it's the world is so bad. And I, I think it's a lack of community. You know, they don't have anybody talk to. I mean, we live in such a virtual world today. You know that that's not, that's not connecting. We need people like this. We need people with skin on it, right? Not, not not a machine to talk

33:54Ann Kita:to. Around a nice table, do you?

33:57Pastor Ken:Have a lot of young people, all ages I'm assuming.

34:01Ann Kita:We do, yes, that's. Awesome, that is wonderful. Our kids camp was from age 4 through 14 and we had nearly 160

34:10Pastor Ken:campers. Wow, 160.

34:14Susan Arnould:It was amazing. And then we do teen groups, so we have that runs coincide with their eight week. But then we're also in the schools in the last couple years doing grief support groups in the schools. So the social workers and the school staff are reaching out to us to kind of bring that into that space too, just to meet the need while they're in school. So it's really grown and the need is great. We need to keep up. But it's it's just interesting and sad how many people are suffering and walking alone that this is, I think, just a vital

34:42Pastor Ken:program that we. Offer we You know, we have the technology to reach out to everybody, but yet we're so lonely. Isn't that something?

34:49Ann Kita:There's a missing piece. There is a missing piece. It's. The community.

34:53Pastor Ken:I agree. Another question I have is when is grief? Does it ever end?

35:02Ann Kita:No, no. No, You know, one of our speakers a few weeks ago, I'm such a visual person, he stated about all these puzzle pieces and putting it together, which is a new scene, you know, a new scenery and it can be beautiful, but there always be a missing piece. And I just felt like that really focused in on how I was feeling. And what I like about many things about New Hope is that we get to choose to be hopeful and find some new meaning and beginnings. And that's not an opportunity to forget about our past either. So it's, it never goes away. And then there was another one in reference to the facilitator saying this big boulder just over over your head and she just, you know, but as time goes on, that boulder, you know, gets smaller and smaller. That's it.

36:11Susan Arnould:Always stays in your pocket. A little rock. A little rock. Yeah, I like that, yeah. Yeah, you always carry it and

36:17Ann Kita:sometimes, you know, it's there and sometimes you, you don't because you're going about your day and it's, you know, maybe like a piece of jewelry too, you know, like, you know, it's there some days, but other days you don't know it's there. So it it never goes away because I think that is a really a significant piece of like how important that person was too. So despite how hard it is and how you know, heart aching it can be and the tears come, it's really an opportunity to say how much you really loved that person.

36:49Pastor Ken:I agree with that. That's awesome. I love that. I think a lot of people struggle. I don't want to forget that person in order for my life to move forward. I think sometimes people think if I move forward, then that person is not going to be in my life anymore. And that's not true. Because I love that analogy because the rock is always with us in the pocket, right? They're they're in our heart. And that's a great analogy. Does the grief we don't always talk about is that hard? Like, I want to go somewhere that might be difficult but incredibly important. When we say grief, people often immediately think about losing a spouse or a parent. But New Hope encounters many different kinds of loss. So your work with people who have experienced miscarriages and a loss of a child, people who have lost someone to suicide, what we talked about, thank God that boy was saved. Thank God for that. But substance abuse, right? Or even homicide. So talk a little bit about that

38:03Ann Kita:side of it. Well, I think those are realities in our world. And sometimes it's even harder to even talk about because who wants to say that their son or their best friend was addicted to whatever it was? That in itself is, you know, a very hard thing to care and then to say. I could only imagine because I don't know to be in those shoes, but the opportunity to say what could I have done better or how could I have saved that person? So I think that adds elements of, I don't know, guilt. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, with those.

38:46Susan Arnould:Or shame for a stigma. Yeah, there's a lot of stigma with both of. Those yeah, like I failed as a parent. Yeah, right. Totally. Yeah, totally. That's why we do make those groups different. So it could be like a parent, a child, but suicide is the main piece of that. Just because there's value in that they can understand each other because there is a lot of stigma and struggle related to that as you're trying to grieve

39:09Pastor Ken:and process. So what would you say to someone listening right now to the podcast who has experienced one of these losses and really has never talked about it? They feel that stigma. They feel shame that they weren't there. They feel like they weren't there. How do you reach that person?

39:31Ann Kita:Well, we have what's called first steps and that is space for someone to come in and speak to somebody one-on-one. So maybe that person doesn't, you know, they hear that we're doing ongoing groups and there's eight week workshop and there's all these people and they're thinking, I, I don't want to even face anybody, but I'm really interested in what New Hope can do and give me the support. So we do first steps and it's that space where that person who's grieving comes in and meets with a person who's walked in similar shoes, a peer-to-peer. And just a quiet time, one-on-one to basically reflect on their story and share who that person is. And then we are able to share with them the programs that we do have and see what they need. And it might not be the need of actually participating in our program, but they might have some other needs. So we have resources that we can help them get connected. And we're really just kind of become their best friend at that point, just to be able to give

40:38Pastor Ken:them what they need at the time. Good. So it's peer support and professional counseling when

40:43Ann Kita:it's. Not professional counseling. We're really. Volunteer peer to.

40:48Pastor Ken:Peer. OK.

40:50Ann Kita:We definitely have resources that extend out into that clinical counseling world when people might say, I think I need a little bit more, more or in addition to.

41:00Susan Arnould:Yeah, we have a lot of. Guide though, yeah, we. Have a lot of in addition to sometimes they'll have a therapist or a counselor, but then they'll also come for

41:07Pastor Ken:ongoing peer support too, so. Oh, nice. Oh, good. I love that. I love hearing that. So what can happen in a room full of people who have experienced similar losses that may be difficult to reproduce anywhere, anywhere else, so to speak? What do you think about that?

41:30Ann Kita:Like what would happen in the room when they're when you have those people collected in space. I, I know just based upon my own experience, in a short four week period of time, you become friends. You, you truly become.

41:46Pastor Ken:Get back to that community thing.

41:47Ann Kita:It is it really, you know, there was someone who was sharing in the group and there was some other things that were happening and we ended the group and that person left and collectively there was three or four of us saying we need to help support that person. And it just it became so natural. And I don't know of any other space that that would really happen in, you know, because.

42:17Pastor Ken:So it's like get their phone number, take them to lunch, follow up with them during the day, not necessarily in a session, but. Right. You're following up with that individual, right?

42:28Susan Arnould:Some become super close friends. They'll travel together later. Like it's wow, very bonding. A lot of it.

42:33Pastor Ken:When you walk through that together, that's amazing. Yeah, it is. That's so incredible and man,

42:37Ann Kita:our world needs it. We do.

42:40Pastor Ken:Yeah, So who, who are the volunteers? Kind of give me the people behind the scene, right. Something else I think that when I was reading over this, I find remarkable is that New Hope facilitators and volunteers. It's a free service, yes. So that blew my mind because nothing is free today in society, right? I mean, it's like, OK, what's the gig? Right? What what's the what's the final, you know, the small print? What? What do you could get me on? Right? And it's free of charge, friends. So tell us that.

43:18Ann Kita:Who are the volunteers? The volunteers, as Susan had mentioned. Should I speak better about this? They have most, if not all have gone through our program. Before they do so, a lot of our

43:30Susan Arnould:facilitators, not just the facilitators, it could be helping us man the offices, doing outreaches for us, speaking for workshops and seminars, helping with our children's programs. But most of them, we've expanded some, but most of them have come through as participants because they lost someone and then want to get back in that way. So then we vet them and do trainings and continue to do ongoing trainings with them. But they remember what it was like and they want to help, you know, their peers and sometimes also the younger generation because they go I walking through that as a kiddo is is another level of just struggle too. So yeah, it's all that's I think that's the powerful thing about New Hope is that even that you want to kind of go back and help in that kind of difficult time to help others through their difficult time. I think it's pretty amazing, honestly. That is amazing. I wondered.

44:19Pastor Ken:How that worked, That's pretty cool that that's amazing that people that go through the program and then they want to come back and give back. Yeah, That really shows you that this program's working. So what if somebody's out there listening and they say, you know what, I want to do that. How do I do that? Like, how do I be a part? How does that work? Yeah. What does that look like? Well, we have a someone that

44:40Susan Arnould:coordinates all our volunteers. But they can reach out to us on our website at newhopecenter.net. Like I came as a volunteer and I didn't come through the program. So we have those people too. Because like you've said before, grief will affect everyone. So eventually you're affected. But yeah, they can just connect with us online and we would definitely like to get people plugged in. That's awesome. How so?

44:58Pastor Ken:How many do you think you have volunteers right now? It's over 200. Really.

45:02Susan Arnould:Oh yeah, easy, yeah, easy 'cause there's all different capacities. I mean, just for camp alone, we'll have like over 100 volunteers just for camp. And that could be different. Some of those are different, like community partners, police officers, people that will help us specifically for that. But then we have the ones that help all throughout the year too. So it's amazing. It is amazing.

45:19Ann Kita:Wow, that's a great. Community.

45:21Pastor Ken:Yeah, it is. So. I want to finish our conversation by talking, I think, directly to the one person, right? Somebody may be listening to us right now who is carrying that loss? Maybe everyone thinks they're doing OK and they've gone back to work and they're taking care of the kids and they're showing up at church and they're smiling when people ask how you're doing. But privately they're hurting inside, so maybe they're thinking it's been 6 months and I should be better, or it's been 2 years and why does this still hurt? So what would you say to that person tonight?

46:06Ann Kita:I would say that they're worthy. Enough to take care of themselves. I think with such a heavy weight of grief, there's, I mean with the. Busyness of every. Day going to work or just, you know, doing what you need to do and then when you don't want to do things, just to take the courage to take the step and take care of yourself is really important. So that would be step number one step. Number one, give yourself permission. Like literally give yourself permission to give yourself space to take care of you and do it in a little bit of increments. And that's what I also like about the eight week. It's, you know, it's once a week and it's not like you're going 3 times. You know, you're like, Oh my goodness. And the facilitators remind us, you know, what's one thing you did for yourself this week? And sitting there myself, I'm like, I have to give myself permission and take time for me. And it can be as. Simple as 5. Minutes. Or it could be an hour of something. But taking ownership, I think taking that back and embracing yourself, giving yourself, like your own hug to say that I'm worthy and I give myself permission. I like that, Yeah.

47:23Pastor Ken:You you agree? Yeah. And I would say we just don't want.

47:26Susan Arnould:You to grieve alone, like it's, it is very isolating, but it's that I mean, valid. You lost someone, you're loved and we don't want you to grieve alone. And there's no timetable on it. So even if it's year 2, Year 5, whatever, you can feel like I'm struggling and I need support. That's OK. Like, come. There's no, there's no stages of grief. There's no like this, this and this. It'll be done in a year. You'll feel better. It's not. It's you carry it with you all the time. So sure. Yeah. That's wonderful.

47:50Pastor Ken:Don't be alone. And Susan, thank you. I, I, I just think this is amazing and I think there's something I want everybody listening to today to remember is grief isn't weakness. Grief is not weakness. Grief says that somebody mattered and that you love somebody and that they were part of your story and losing them changed something inside of you. I know it did me when I lost my mom. I miss her so much. And you don't have to pretend that it didn't hurt because it does hurt. And you don't have to meet somebody else's timetable when for when you should be over it. And maybe that's most importantly after today's conversation that you don't have to walk through this alone, friend. So sometimes healing begins when we finally sit across from one another like we did here today. And we say, you know what you're under, We understand, we understand what you're going through. So I, I, I want to close this out because I want to give you some time to tell about New Hope. And and so before I let you go, I want, I want you to tell the listeners about you got some events coming up at New Hope. And so could you tell us about those things?

49:09Ann Kita:So we are. A space that likes to be able to celebrate and enjoy each other's company, not only in groups, but it's Merry Little Christmas is coming up and that's on December 4th. And tickets can be purchased online. And just a space to have people welcomed, especially holidays. It's lonely. Yeah. And that. It's a safe space to. Be and to socialize have not be judged, not be. Judged and you. Can walk in alone and you'll be embraced because it's almost like a secondary family, truly. I've not experienced it yet, but I'm very, very excited to be a part of that. That's awesome. And then there's a gala.

49:54Pastor Ken:Two Yeah, April 30th is our next.

49:56Susan Arnould:Year, next gala. Yep. And because we are free, we use that also to help with fun. So that's a fundraiser? It is a fundraiser. Yeah, and what? A worthy cause it is. It's Oh my. Gosh, it's really great so. April 30th, if I can come, anybody can come, Yeah. So where an invite? Yes, I would love it.

50:11Pastor Ken:Where where is New Hope? Like do you have what's the physical location? So the physical location we're

50:17Ann Kita:in. Downtown Northville. OK. So that's basically you're close. We're close, yeah. And our administrative offices are there, yeah. But we definitely host a few groups. Yeah, we have lots of different host locations.

50:29Susan Arnould:And sites. So a lot of churches actually host a lot of our groups. So we have like 16 ongoing groups that happened. Oh, they can be in Farmington Hills and we have different ones. So we're in different locations as far as our ongoing.

50:41Pastor Ken:Wow, that's awesome. And ladies, this has been wonderful. Thank you, Ann, thank you, Susan, Thank you for being here and having this conversation with me. And to everybody listening, thank you for joining us for another episode of Real Talk with PK. Remember, life gets messy and life gets difficult and sometimes life really hurts. And we don't have to pretend friends. And we can talk about it and we can walk through it together and we can keep moving forward. And I want to encourage you with that. So until next time, keep it real, keep the faith, and I'll talk to you next time on Real Talk with PK.